Interview with Michael J. DeLeon, December 11, 2017

POSTON: Okay. So, painting with broad strokes, tell us about yourself and your early memories and what are your--in thinking about that, what are your connections to the Commonwealth of Kentucky?

DELEON: Well, you know, my father was in the service. So, I was an Army brat. And so, we lived in--at Fort Campbell down in Hopkinsville. I was probably a preteen, early teen. And then, he got stationed at Fort Knox. And while at Fort Knox, he wandered downtown and wound up buying a farm. So, that's how I became a permanent Kentuckian is--you know, my dad was in the service, and then, he bought this--this farm and is out in--near Rineyville, which is close to Elizabethtown in Hardin County.

POSTON: Cool. So, at what age did you become a permanent Kentuckian?

DELEON: I was eleven. I was about eleven years old. And I was finishing up some school at Fort Knox, and then, I started school in Hardin County. 00:01:00And it was--it was interesting--(laughs)--you know, being Hispanic as well as--by that point I knew I was gay, and it was just, you know, my biggest, darkest secret just because living in rural Kentucky and, you know--but I still--(laughs)--had a great childhood and a great--teenage and high school years, you know, in Kentucky.

POSTON: So, when you graduated from high school, what happened next?

DELEON: Well, my--my initial plan was to go to the University of Louisville, which I--I didn't--you know, neither one of my parents went to college. So, you know, as far as figuring this out, it was--it was a lot on my own. And then, close to time to start to school, I realized that's a long commute. You know, it's about an hour probably. And then, I didn't even think about living there. And so, what I wound up doing was going to community college in Elizabethtown, which, at the time, was part of the University of Kentucky's community college. So, I went to UK 00:02:00--Elizabethtown Community College or we used to call it Ecc Tech. (laughs) But, you know, I went there for two years. Started out as a biology major. And allowed me to live at home and work--you know, work part time. And then, it was almost full time by the time you counted weekend hours and things like that. But really had met a core group of friends, and we just--you know, we were really tight. And then, when it was time for us, as juniors, to come to the University of Kentucky, you know, we had our own little network of friends, you know, because, you know, anybody that was already here had their friends. And--and so, that--that made it really nice. And we were all from rural parts of Kentucky. So, we had that in common.

POSTON: Your friend group?

DELEON: Yes.

POSTON: Folks coming from--so, that friend group here at UK and your--your move from--from the community college to UK here in Lexington--tell us more about that and--and about your experiences 00:03:00as a student here at UK.

DELEON: Well, you know, interestingly my move to the University of Kentucky is also, you know, about this time that I, you know, had, you know, dealt with like being, you know, a gay man and experiencing the, you know, things that go along with that. So--so, moving to University of Kentucky and--and coming out--well, I really wasn't out. But, you know, at least being a gay man, you know, they coincided together. So, what happened though is, you know, I also joined a fraternity, and I kept that core group of friends. And--and I think about my time at UK as just, you know--I had two lives. You know, I had--(laughs)--the--the life, you know, of--of fraternity--fraternity guy and, you know, just having some really good friends--and--and close friendships. But I also kept, you know, a secret life from them, you know, where--you know, just delving into 00:04:00you know, kind of the--the late hours gay community and just real impersonal relationships there, you know, kind of--I think that's common for the time period, you know, in the late seventies, early eighties.

POSTON: Yeah. So, while you were here at UK, what--what college and groups did you get involved in as a student?

DELEON: Yeah. I was in the College of Agriculture. And, you know, I had in my mind that--actually, to go back to--my parents had a farm. And we used to--I used to joke with my dad that--because, you know, anything that I was doing on the farm whether I was raising goats or chickens, my projects always made money, and his never--(laughs)--did. His were just like, you know, this black hole of just sinking money into--he had like a registered Angus herd. And so, I--you know, I--I thought, "Well, if I major in agriculture, I'll go back home, and, you know, I can make a go of this." You know? 00:05:00And it was--it was a beautiful farm. I really enjoyed it. So, you know, it's just--college of agriculture. And then, you know, the fraternity I joined was FarmHouse, so, you know, ag--ag fraternity and really some great guys. You know, some of them were--a couple of them were my friends from Elizabethtown Community College. So, we kind of, you know, stuck together for long periods. But yeah, going to school--and I worked at UPS. So, I worked some really odd hours, you know, for quite a while, like 00:06:00to two in the morning. So, the--the good thing about the college of agriculture is most of the classes were real early in the day. So, it was to my benefit just to go to work and then stay up and then go to eight o'clock classes, you know, and--and probably be done by noon most of the time.

POSTON: That's a--that's a long schedule.

DELEON: Yeah, yeah.

POSTON: Yeah. So, you mentioned a bit about, you know, the--you 00:07:00beginning in the late seventies, early eighties to connect to a gay scene, mostly a later night gay scene and that, of course, happening, in part, while you were here at UK. So, you know, thinking about those early experiences of coming out and--we know that those are--coming out moments are significant spaces and milestones for--for LGBTQ folks.

DELEON: Yeah.

POSTON: Tell us a little bit--a little bit more about your own coming out and--and maybe spaces that--or how you've articulated that over time. How has changed from your initial coming out to maybe how you thought about it ten years later or today?

DELEON: Yeah. Well, interestingly, I had like a family friend, somebody I grew up with, you know, their--their parent was also--they were also Mexican American, and they were also an Army brat. And she was a very good friend. She was probably maybe two or three years older than me. And she had already finished at the University of Kentucky and was--was working. She worked at, I believe, Happy Chandler Medical Center. 00:08:00And, you know, I got--we were talking. She said, "Well, you know, you should come dancing with me sometime at The Bar." And I was like, "Okay." (laughs) You know, so--so, I--yeah. During that time period, you know, just to--to have that--you know, what we would use the term "beard". You know, but to go to the gay bar and kind of get a feel for it and everything just in--in some kind of protected mode was--was appealing. And so, at some point, you know, I--I remember--she's--she said, "I can't go tonight." It was like a Saturday night. And I was like, "Okay." And so, that was the first time I went by myself, you know, and then, later I had to just come clean with her. You know, and she said, "Well, I was kind of thinking that anyway--(laughs)--that--you know, because--you know, I've known you all my life, you know, since we were kids." And so, my introduction into--to, you know, going to the gay bar, not necessarily just the parking lots around the bar and everything--(laughs)--so, 00:09:00that was actually--you know, made me feel better about myself. And then, you know, I started meeting some really good friends and, you know, forming relationships with other gay people, not just, you know, the kind of the dark--(laughs)--you know, stuff that goes on.

POSTON: Yeah. And we're talking in those moments about the establishment, The Bar, right? Not just the bar in general, but The Bar.

DELEON: Yeah, the--yeah, actually The Bar or the--believe it not--you know, thirty-seven, forty years later still exists. You know, and so--that--that is--itself is a huge milestone--(laughs)--that that exists still.

POSTON: Yeah.

DELEON: So, that--that was kind of, you know--and it still fit in with my dual lifestyle because the fraternity--we still had things that I was active with, my friends, and then, I would just ghost out--(laughs)--you know, at--you know, around 00:10:00, eleven o'clock. And a lot of times those--those events were ending anyway. So, it worked out really well. (laughs)

POSTON: So, at--at what stage in, 00:11:00in your life here in Lexington as a student did you encounter or meet your husband for the first time?

DELEON: Well, I actually was at The Bar. And then, I--you know, I mentioned I had a tight group of friends. And there was just this one night where, you know, two--two of them were out of town. There were about four or five of us. And then, my roommate, who was also a good friend, was sick. And--(laughs)--so, I wound up going--it was rare for me to go to The Bar without my friends because we were just--so--so, that night was the night I met Greg, and it just happened to be, you know, a night there by myself. You know, Greg and I always joke, we never--we weren't looking for like a husband. We weren't even looking for probably anything more than a--(laughs)--a one night stand. I mean, this--this is the eighties. You know, it was 1982. And, you know, pretty much if you went to The Bar, it was 00:12:00--it was just--you know, the word was "trick". I mean, yeah, you were just looking for a trick. And there weren't many role models as far as couples or, you know--and if--I think what we saw later is couples just disappear out of the bar scene. So, you don't see them, but they're all--you know, there were plenty there. So, you know, I saw him. He was wearing a Louis--I can remember what he was wearing. He was wearing a Louisville t-shirt, which I was like, "Okay, the guy's crazy." (both laugh) You know, but--yeah, so I--you know, he was, I think, standing up against, you know, one of the little mirrored columns. And so, I asked him to dance, and, you know--and that was--seemed to be it.

POSTON: So, from--from the mirrored column through--(both laugh)--through, you know, the last thirty, thirty-five years.

DELEON: Thirty-five years, yeah.

POSTON: How has that relationship unfolded and changed and--yeah--what--what--what happened after that night?

DELEON: Well, it turned out that he actually lived--we lived on the same street, on South Upper. You know, I lived at 327, and he was at 347, which is only, you know, a few houses down. So--and then, the next day, he knocked on my door. So, you know, it was like, "Oh, okay." And so, some friends of mine had said, you know, "Oh, we heard you--you met somebody last night just--" and we're out of town. You know, and we were going to the movies. We were going to A Streetcar Named Desire that day, you know, as our friends and stuff. So--so, when Greg popped in and, you know, I asked him if he wanted to go, and he said yeah. And so, we--you know, we wound up going to the movies and, you know, it was--we--we--we say it was our first date. But it was almost some friends of mine that were there and stuff. And--but, you know, it was--you know, they--they all like got to see him because, you know, we--not 00:14:00many of us stayed at--I mean, we would just, you know, have these little flings and a real good friend of mine and I--we--we did--you know, we did date, but not each other, but we had some boyfriends at the same time. And we weren't always the kindest boyfriends. You know? (both laugh) We were always scheming to try to get rid of them actually.

POSTON: And then one stuck?

DELEON: Yeah, yeah, he did. Yeah.

POSTON: So, in thinking about, you know, certainly a moment that--that I knew you and Greg from initially that--a big PR moment around marriage equality and where your relationship had--had come from, you know, the early eighties to--to decades later. So, tell us a bit about, you know, leading up to your involvement in marriage equality movement, sort of where that came from, 00:15:00why you were involved, and, and what that looked like at a--at a high point and where it is today.

DELEON: Okay. Just--I'm going to just kind of go back a little bit because we did move away from Kentucky when we both graduated here. We moved to Connecticut and lived there about--I always get it wrong--three to five years. And then, Kentucky called us back. So, we moved to--to Louisville. And then, we started, you know, our careers. I actually have been with the same employer for almost twenty-eight, twenty-nine years so--there in Louisville. So, you know, we moved back to Louisville and our--our parents, you know, were both here, our families. And--and we loved Kentucky. So, you know, we wound up buying a house and going through all those things. And then, we--we adopted two children in 1999. Well, we adopted one and then a couple years later, the second one, which he was older. But, you know, we had our career jobs and had 00:16:00these children, which the--the big thing that--that leads into the marriage equality case was only one of us could adopt them. So, as we went through home studies and--and that type of thing, we were interviewed as a--kind of as a, quote, "family," but knowing that only one of us was going to be able to adopt. So, that was a big factor in having a marriage recognized because we did go to Canada in 2004 and we got married there. And that was about the soonest that we could do it. Massachusetts, I think, was right behind legal marriage in Canada. So--but here we had this marriage certificate, and, you know, we did a lot of things--because we had these two kids, co-parenting them, but with only one of us with--you know, a legal parent. So, we did things like powers of attorney and medical, you know, decisions, drew up legal documents. And then, as the marriage equality fight started to come around, 00:17:00you know, that was--we said, "Boy, we'd like to have our marriage recognized, the one from Canada." And one thing led to another. One of--a lady I worked with--she--actually my HR manager--she connected us with--with Dawn and Shannon, who initiated the Kentucky marriage recognition case in 2013. So, she knew--you know, she knew a guy who knew them, and they connected us up. And that's how us and both of our kids wound up as the plaintiffs in the--at first, it was Bourke DeLeon v Beshear, and then, other couples joined the case, and they shortened it to just Greg's name, Bourke v Beshear. (laughs) That was a mouthful.

POSTON: So, what was it like being a part of that, you know, being initially connected to--to the attorneys 00:18:00and then that morphing into a much, much bigger conversation--right--and--in Bourke v Beshear? What was that like?

DELEON: Yeah. It was--you know, at first--I mean, we--we didn't realize, I think, the impact of what we were doing here in Kentucky. Our--Shannon Fauver, the attorney, said, "Oh, meet me at--meet me at the federal courthouse. You know, there's--there's a reporter that wants to talk to you guys and me." And we said, "Okay." So, she--she filed the lawsuit in court or--and then--and we just met her outside. And then, after that though, it was just--I mean, it was just like, you know--somehow, you know, Shannon, I guess, had given our phone numbers, and we were just bombarded with media calls. And we wound up just going to Shannon's office and having a press conference there, you know, the two of us 00:19:00and--and we--we had no clue that it was just going to get so huge. And, you know--so, the local media just became a lot of national media and some interviews. And right away, we figured out, you know, we had one interview, which--you know, it was on the phone with somebody from D.C. And then, we--we just looked at each other because we realized it wasn't necessarily a friendly--friendly interview. And it was actually an LGBT, you know, story. But it was more of how did you guys just not follow protocol because Kentucky wasn't on the--they weren't on the list for the marriage equality roadmap. You know, so, we didn't know there was a roadmap. (laughs) You know, we just--you know, and during the interview, we actually joked that we made our own entryway onto the--the--(laughs)--the roadmap.

POSTON: So, the--the roadmap you're talking about is what?

DELEON: HRC, Freedom to Marry, and ALCU 00:20:00--they kind of were working together, and they--they had the--the states mapped out on how they were going to win marriage equality, you know, state by state, whether it was in the courts or through the legislation. You know that they would win these cases. And, you know, there was a plan. And--but we weren't the--I mean, we were one of the first states to kind of just blow up the plan. But, you know, other states--Texas, they went on the roadmap. You know, and a lot of the states in the South were not.

POSTON: So, did you--can you tell us about, I guess, the first of two days that--the day you realized that--you know, that this was going--that your case as a part of several were going to the Supreme Court?

DELEON: Yeah. Well, I mean, that was a--that was a long process though. And we just--it was like, you know, you meet a milestone, and you wait, you meet a milestone, and you wait. I mean, the--the fact that Judge Heyburn ruled in our favor, you know, at the federal district court--you know, that--that was huge. And, you know, we--we just said, "Okay, we--we've got this." And then, you know, Beshear appealed because--I don't know if you remember. It was--you know, Jack Conway--he was the--the Attorney General. And he--you know, he said, "I can't challenge it." And then, Beshear came in like ten minutes later and said, "Yes, I'm going to challenge it." So, you win, then you're--okay, you're in appeal. So, meanwhile, you know, our marriages weren't recognized. You know, that's--that's the way that this one worked. And then, I--I--I think we both learned a lot about our court system because, you know, I mean I had all this stuff in school, but you know, you just kind of learned it for a test. And so, knowing that we had a circuit court fight next and knowing that we were grouped with four other states, you know, Michigan, Tennessee, and Ohio. And so, 00:21:00that was the next stages that we had arguments at the circuit court level. And that was--we walked away thinking it was--it went well. But then, the--the Sixth Circuit actually ruled in favor of all the states, you know, who were fighting marriage equality, that they--and so, in that case, you know, we went into another state of--stage of, you know, "Who's going to go to the Supreme Court?" And meanwhile, you know, we--we've gotten--we--our network is expanding to a lot of other plaintiffs across a lot of states. You know, I--I know we were all thinking Utah is going to be next. I think they're the Tenth Circuit. And so, a lot--a lot of states wound up going to the Supreme Court, and then, the Supreme Court says, "No, we're not going to hear it. You know, you--you know, let the ruling stay." These are states that had won marriage equality in the circuit court. And we were the first 00:22:00circuit court to--to lose. And--and then, we still waited for a while before, you know, the--the Supreme Court says, "Okay, we're going to take up the Sixth Circuit Court fight." And that was pretty exciting because, okay, we are going to--you know, we're going to be under the Obergefell case. But we're still going to be in this case that could make history. You know, and we thought it had a chance, and we were--we were hoping, you know, but you never know. And--and it worked out in our favor. (laughs)

POSTON: So, the--the day that you--you realized it finally worked out--right--when the--when the Supreme Court hands down the decision and--in Obergefell. Tell us a bit about that day and where you were and what you were thinking.

DELEON: Yeah. We were actually in the courtroom on the day--on decision day for the Obergefell ruling. And this worked out really--you know, worked out pretty cool actually. You know, we were--conversations with the ACLU and 00:23:00and we were some of the plaintiffs who had expressed interest in being there for--for the ruling. They asked us, "Hey, can you and your kids come out, you know, in--maybe Thursday in case they have a ruling on Friday?" And Greg--you know, my husband Greg had said--he actually had a dream about, you know, it being on that Friday. So, you know, it all fell together. And the ACLU said, "Well, you know, bring the kids," because our kids were out of school. And it was in June. So, we wound up flying out, you know, that Thursday afternoon. And the ACLU had hired line standers for us in the morning. And we needed to be there at seven. So, we were there, and then, we, you know, went through all the security for, you know, the Supreme Court. And sitting in the courtroom, you know--and Judge Kennedy started reading--you know, reading the decision. And it was pretty clear that he--the 00:24:00decision was in favor of marriage equality. And that was an experience itself because you know, you want to just jump and do cartwheels and everything. But you're in the court and you--(laughs)--you know, you know. So, there was a lot of just silent emotion, happy, and just, you know--and I think one of the kids, you know, was mouthing, "Did we win?" And we said, "Yes, yes." (laughs) You know? And so, that--that day--you know, from--you know, because we sat through a couple of other cases and then, you know, there was a whirlwind of media and celebration. Greg and I were on, you know, with Chuck Todd on Face the Nation. That was pretty cool. (laughs) That was probably one of the coolest things. You know?

POSTON: So, throughout your life and--and especially throughout your contributions to--to LGBTQ community and activism, 00:25:00what role has religion played in--in that for you?

DELEON: Well, we are, you know, men of strong faith. We're Roman Catholic. And since we met, you know, thirty-five years ago, it's been part of our relationship. You know, through, you know--through our interaction with all of our families, you know, and our parents, you know, my--both--both my parents are gone. But, you know, it's--it's always been there. It's always been the core of who we are. You know, we thank God so much for our blessings, you know, because--I'm going to go off track because it's ironic how so many people, you know, think that LGBT people cannot be people of faith. And, you know, we know so many. I mean, we're not--we're not alone in being Roman Catholic, and we're not alone in being Christian. And, you know, we, we get demonized. But, you know, we think core to a lot of things in our lives, you know, successful careers, you know, a beautiful family 00:26:00from both our siblings and parents and cousins and friends and everything that--that, you know--that is core to just, you know, our beliefs. It goes right along in step and, you know, the love we have, you know, for--for our fellow human beings and everything. It's just--you know, sometimes it's overwhelming. It's like--you know, I go to church sometimes and just the feeling that I get of, you know, all these blessings. And I grew up--my dad was always like, "Don't be asking for things from God. (laughs) You know, just thank Him for what you have." And I--I think that is--that was a huge lesson that he provided. And I think it's--you know, all those blessings and not asking for things, you know, that--that's core, I think, to a lot of what has happened in--in my life as--you know, both as an individual, as well as, you know, a family unit.

POSTON: And in those spaces, 00:27:00in those religious spaces, what sort of support or lack of support have you encountered?

DELEON: You know, our--our individual parish--so, in the pews, we have a lot of support from a lot of different demographics, from the--some of the oldest people in the parish, you know, people in their nineties who encouraged us through, you know, whatever fight we were at or, you know, whatever we were going through. And that is just pretty spectacular. You know, there's people in church that--you know, some elders that, you know, if we have to go and greet them as part of entering church, you know, because it's just expected. But they've been there for us. And so, that's with people in the pews. Now, the church hierarchy is a different story. And we've got some little head-to-head we've done with our own archbishop. And you know, there's--the church sends a lot of different confusing messages. You know, but it's--it's a monolith. But we feel like it's--it's 00:28:00moving in the right direction. And, you know--and a lot of LGBT people say, "Why the heck do you guys just--just get out of that church because it's caused a lot of harm to a lot of LGBT people." And our--our sense is that, if we leave, they win. And, you know--because the people in the pews, I think they're fighting with us. And it's just, you know--it--I don't know. To me, it's--it's where we want to be, and it--it's served us well.

POSTON: So, both specifically in Lexington and maybe in your broader life in the state, what kinds of spaces have you found to be the most supportive and what kinds of spaces or specific places have you found to be much more difficult and--and maybe places that worked to exclude you where you didn't feel welcome?

DELEON: You know, we started careers in the, you know, late 00:29:00eighties in places that weren't necessarily welcoming. You know, at the time, you know, I--I still work for General Electric Appliances, but it was General Electric. You know, and it was the stuff you blue--you know, white collar, you know, no diversity as far as LGBT especially. So, you know, places like that weren't comfortable. And, you know, part of our story too is, you know, I think we were allowed to be good plaintiffs for Obergefell or Bourke v Beshear because, you know, we--we came out in the workplaces and people got to know us. So, you know, Greg and I both have a history of--of not lying to people about what our relationship was early on, you know, that, you know, were were, we were a couple. And people get to know you as a couple, and they get to like you as a couple. You know, so the gay thing was not that big a deal at some point, both in our work environment as well as, you know, in our church environment and with a lot of friends. So, you know, we lived in Louisville and, you know, we lived in Lexington, and we lived in Connecticut, which was very welcoming. You know, we--we were probably out--out the most there. And then, when we came back to Kentucky, it was like, "Well, we can't be back in. We have to be out." And other parts of the state--because I went to high school in rural Kentucky. And social media is one of these things that is a great way for people to get to know that people they've demonized aren't that much different than them. So, yeah, I started getting friend requests from people out in Hardin County, and a lot of these people--you know, they have strong opinions about, you know, gay people. And I don't know how many I've gotten where people say, "You really changed the way I feel about gay people because I just didn't know any." And, you know, through social media, they see that we're just like them. You know, we're dealing with elderly parents and young kids and jobs, careers, you know, it's just--just like you. 00:30:00So, I don't feel like I've ever been like discriminated against in Kentucky just because I lived in Louisville, in Lexington, and, you know, those cities are much different. But--but we see it when we go out in the--you know, in the state. Greg and I both have made, you know, decisions to--to try to help other parts of the state if we can, you know, whether it's just showing up at--at a pride fair as a participant or, you know, working with the UK alumni group that we're both founding members of.

POSTON: Beautiful.

DELEON: PrideCats. (laughs)

POSTON: PrideCats.

DELEON: There you go.

POSTON: So, outside of marriage equality where a lot of our activist conversations is--has centered with you, tell us about other activism or advocacy that you're involved in.

DELEON: Well, I mean, I mentioned our--the University of Kentucky's LGBT alumni group, you know, PrideCats. 00:31:00We're--we're both board members, and I'm the secretary for that group. And over this past summer, you know, Greg and I have attended quite a few pride fairs and promoting just the--you know, the--the people know we're out there, you know, that know there's, you know, other--other folks. In fact, I met a little sister from FarmHouse fraternity, you know, whois--who is a lesbian and, you know, she's like, "Don't you remember me?" They used to call me Ponce, like from CHiPs, Ponce, or Ponch, or something like that. So--and then, my last name DeLeon, so Ponce DeLeon. But yeah. So, that was great, just reconnecting with people. But a lot of the advocacy we do through our employers as well because, you know, we'll go to a pride fair representing--like for me, GE Appliances. And a lot of people say, "Well, gay people can work at GE Appliances?" And we say, "Well, yeah." (laughs) 00:32:00So--so, our advocacy sometimes is just awareness to people who aren't, you know, in the same, you know, circles that we are as far as in Louisville or in, you know--in professional environment working as an out and open person.

POSTON: So, tell us a bit about Michael in 2017 and, you know, what excites you. What are you working on or involved in?

DELEON: (laughs) Outside of being--LGBT activism or just--?

POSTON: --Sure, yeah--

DELEON: --Sure. I've been taking pottery for about a year. So, you know, it's pottery on the wheel. And yeah. So, that's really fun. I mean, I--it's a good creative outlet. And, you know, it's--I take it in six-week classes. I joked with the Greg the other day. He--I said, "No, I'm on break." And he said, "You can't take a break in a six week"--I said, "Yeah, we do." (both laugh) Thanksgiving break. But no, I mean, I like doing things with my hands. You know, I've got some projects, you know, that are more 00:33:00textile driven that--that I'm getting ready to start up. So, yeah, I--I--Greg and I went to a pottery sale, like my instructor's. So, they were joking, "So, what do you do? What kind of hobby do you have?" And Greg's like, "I don't do creative stuff, so leave me alone." (laughs) Because they were trying to sign him up. But yeah. I don't--I just like to delve in arts and--and it's real different from the work I do. I work in IT. So, you know, to make something with your hand--I don't know. I like that. And then, I garden. I have a backyard garden, which I've been grinding the peppers I dehydrated and choking everybody in the house. (both laugh)

POSTON: So, everybody in the house--how's the family that had such national attention? Where is everyone now?

DELEON: Well, we have one son here at the University of Kentucky. He's a 00:34:00freshman. And then, we have one son who attended Indiana University Southeast for one semester. And, you know, he's young--young adult figuring out what he wants to do. So, he's--he's back home, and he's working. I'm going to tell a quick story just because I think it's hilarious. You know, we--we were missing some dishes. So, I--Greg and I were on our way, actually, to--for Feast last week. And so, I asked our--Isaiah, our soon to be twenty-year-old--I said, "Bring up--you need to bring up some dishes from the basement." You know, so, on the way back home, I told Greg--I said, "We have three possible outcomes. You know, one, no action, no dishes. I mean, they're all still in the basement. And then, two that the sink is piled with crusty hard crusted dishes, you know, that they're just sitting there. And three is that he actually, you know, rinsed the dishes and put them in the dishwasher." So, we got home, 00:35:00and we were shocked. We said--you know, they were in the dishwasher, and they weren't all crusty or anything. So, we said, "Yeah, we're making good progress here are parents." (both laugh) The little wins.

POSTON: Moving in the right direction.

DELEON: Yeah, but I--they--they realize that they were part of something that was huge and important. And I think that, you know, conversations that they have with their peers, you know, they--they can interject with some pride and, you know, that they were actually sitting in the courtroom with us. And I think, in a lot of ways, the--it has instilled, you know--if you want something, you can fight for it, and you can win. So, I mean, that's--that's huge for your kids to carry that. So, you know, we don't talk about it a lot and everything. But I just sense it, and I can hear the little sound bites from them every now and then. And I can see action from them every now and then.

POSTON: So, as we wrap up our conversation, what do you want to share that we haven’t asked?

DELEON: I guess, you know, a lot of--you know, the--the current political environment, you know, being a gay man, being Hispanic, you know, is--is--is one thing that--you know, it's--it's just horrible some days. But, you know, I'm a--I'm a real optimistic, you know--I'm a real--I'm a realist as well. But, you know, a lot of people, I guess don't, you know--we're all entitled, to a degree. You know, you reach a certain education, you reach a certain, you know, financial status and things like that. But, you know, I guess the care that--that both Greg and I have for people who are less fortunate, you know--we don't understand why everybody doesn't feel that way. And so--so, you know, I guess me 2017 is like, "Okay, how can--you know, what can I do to change--change 00:37:00that?" You know, and I--I think we do it mostly through our actions and, you know, a lot through our pocketbooks too. You know--you know, that is just a change that I've love to see is--is us taking care of each other a whole lot better. I'm guilty of taking care of people who are like me better than others. And I think we all need to--to step up our game in lifting the--the people up. At our church this weekend, it was, you know, John the Baptist. You know, how many John the Baptists have you just like, you know, tried to scurry away from because they were somebody you--you know, you--you didn't think would--you needed to help, or you needed to even brush up against or anything like that? So, that's--that's on my mind.

POSTON: Well, thank you.

DELEON: Yeah, you're welcome.

[End of interview.]