Interview with Greg Bourke, December 11, 2017

POSTON: Welcome, Greg.

BOURKE: Thank you.

POSTON: So, our--our first question. Painting with broad strokes. Tell us about yourself and your early memories. What are your connections to the Commonwealth of Kentucky?

BOURKE: Well, I--I'm a native of the Commonwealth. I was born in Louisville in 1957 and had a very, you know, happy childhood, one of four boys born to, you know, a traditional Roman Catholic family. Went to Catholic grade school and high school in Louisville and, you know, had what I think was a very, very pleasant childhood growing up. You know, very--still very close with my family and proud to have been a Kentuckian for all these years. You know, for my sixty years on this planet, almost all those years have been spent in the Commonwealth. There were a couple of years I spent going to graduate school out of state, and then, there were four years that Michael and I--my husband 00:01:00and I lived together in Connecticut. But all the rest of the years have been spent here in the Commonwealth, and it's certainly something that I'm--I'm proud of and looking forward to living out the rest of my years here as well. (laughs)

POSTON: So, we know, for many LGBTQ folks, the first time that someone comes out is a significant life milestone. So, in thinking about that, what--what can you tell us about your coming out experiences and how your understanding or articulation of your own identity has changed over time?

BOURKE: Right. So, I had a chance to think about this a little bit and kind of replay some of that. You know, I--I came out in 1976. So, it's now 2017. So, I've been out for forty-one years. That's a very, very long time. And it's kind of hard to even remember that whole process at this point when you get to be at a certain age. But I do recall how I struggled with my sexual orientation through high school. I went to a 00:02:00Catholic all-boys high school. And so, no one was out. No one came out. It just didn't happen in those days. And so, after I finished at, at my high school, I went to a state university, at the University of Louisville. And it was, you know, quite a bit more relaxed in a lot of respects. And after about a year and a half at the University of Louisville, I finally got to the point where I kind of came to terms with my sexual orientation. So, I was nineteen years old when I came out. And--and that, to me, was just sort of an acceptance of, yes, I'm gay. I've had enough experience with both sexes at that point, and I knew who I was. And from that point on, in my life, you know, I've been a gay man. And, you know, I've not deviated from that. So, you know, it's kind of one of those things that I had to--to come to terms with myself. Now, what that meant for the first several years was 00:03:00just living with that myself and just, you know, kind of that--that comfort level that, yes--yes, I'm gay, and it's not accepted in, in our culture. But it was something that--that I knew that I couldn't deny and something that--that I had to kind of embrace and own, and own myself. One of the things about coming out in--in, I would say, the seventies and through the eighties is that it was very different in those days, in a lot of respects. You know, for one thing, we didn't have social media. We didn't have mobile phones or email. The only way you could come out to people was to do it kind of individually, one on one. So, you had to wait for or seek out an encounter with a person or a group, typically a person, so that you could kind of bring up that subject. And--and the culture being what it was in those days, it was always kind of risky because you didn't know how people were going to react. 00:04:00So, after I came out in '76 over the rest of my undergraduate experience at the University of Louisville, I kind of gradually came out to people, you know, one on one, so to my friends, members of my family. And for the most part, it was well-received. I was really kind of surprised. I think the world had changed a little bit even by then. And I suppose it was because I was coming out to people who--who I knew and who I knew cared about me. Many of them were family members and friends who, I think, we shared, you know, love for each other. So, it--it made it easier for them to kind of accept what I was revealing to them. But it was kind of a one-on-one series of encounters with people over a period of several years. And for the most part, those encounters went very, very well. So, you know, I didn't experience any kind of rejection from any--any 00:05:00family members. A couple--a couple of my friends from high school were a little cool, you know, but I think, over time, they--they grew to accept it. And it certainly was something that was easier to do the more--the more I did it. So, I'd say, you know, the first few times I'd start revealing myself to people in that whole coming out process it was--it was difficult. But, you know, now obviously, it--it's, you know, much easier. It got easier for me to do it. And then, you know, now, of course, it's part of my core being. So, it's like--it's not difficult to do at all, to come out to people. But--but in those days, yeah, it was. And--and in those days--and--and being Catholic, you know, there wasn't any support within--within my church group, you know, or in my faith community. And at the University of Louisville, obviously, when I started coming out, it's like there were no support services whatsoever for LGBT students in those days. So, it was--it was an experience. It could have 00:06:00gone a lot worse. So, I'm--I'm grateful that things went as well as they did for me.

POSTON: So, a part of this coming out or growing process or milestones, at least in your life, would involve your now husband. So, tell us a bit about that, about your meeting and your early life together.

BOURKE: Right, right. So, after I finished at the University of Louisville, I went away to college in South Bend, Indiana. So, was at Notre Dame for a couple of years getting a master's degree. And then, after that, I decided I needed to kind of get serious about life and get a real degree. And so, I came to the University of Kentucky and started an MBA program. So, I moved to Kentucky, to Lexington in January of 1982 and did not know a soul in Lexington. Didn't know much about the place at all. My older brother had gone to school here. But it was--it was kind of a mystery to me. But I decided 00:07:00that this was, you know, back in the state, and it's where I wanted to be. And after moving here in January, I, you know, started to kind of, you know, kind of poke around to find out if there was any gay life or, you know, if there was any kind of a student group. And of course, there was not. This would have been 1981. So, it's like there wasn't anything going on in Lexington. But I did find out about a bar in town called The Bar and started going there shortly after I moved here. At that point, I was twenty-four, I guess, twenty-four years old. So, you know, within a couple of months after moving to Lexington and getting to know the city a little bit and starting to go out, I met my husband. Michael and I met on March 20, 1982, at The Bar. And I think it's fair to say that we've pretty much been together ever since. And this is 2017. 00:08:00One of the things that--that kind of made that a little bit easier was the fact that--we didn't know it--but when we met in 1982, we lived three doors apart. So, it became very easy for us to stay in constant contact. And then, surprisingly, I guess, things happened very quickly. You know, we--we started going out right away. I mean, you know, we--we hit it off from the start and started going to movies and going camping and just doing a lot--a lot of different things. But then, by August of this--of that year--so, really only a few months into our relationship--I had a situation where my apartment was broken into. And I was just--I was just devastated by it. It just totally freaked me out. And so, I was ready to leave that, you know--leave that apartment complex and--and go anywhere else. And so, it was at that point Michael and I talked, and we decided that I should move in with him. 00:09:00So, you know, that was kind of the first commitment of many commitments that we made to each other over--over the last thirty-five, almost thirty-six years. But that, you know, that was really kind of the turning point when we could tell it was going to be serious and--because I--you know, I was possibly going to moving out to the suburbs to kind of get away from--from a lot of the--you know, the crime and the stuff that was going on around the university at that time. So, it's like--we talked about it. And we just decided, "Yeah, we'll--we'll do this together." And so, I moved in with him. And, as I said, we've been together ever since. The second time we kind of made a commitment to each other was when I graduated from the University of Kentucky with my MBA. I was working for a company here in town called the Irving B. Moore Corporation. They asked me when I graduated--and this would have been May of '83--they asked me to move to Connecticut to head up marketing 00:10:00operations for their division there. So, it was a good offer. And, you know, I was relatively young. But, you know, the one thing that we had to get past was, you know, Michael and I had been together for about a year and a half at that point. So, we had to decide what to do. Are we going together? Are we splitting up? And of course, I asked him to go with me. And he didn't seem to hesitate. So, yeah, I think it was a pretty easy decision for him to make. But that was kind of a second level of commitment. So, the first level was, you know, when we kind of--I moved in with him. And then, the next level was when I had to move to--well, I decided to move to Connecticut to take a job, and he went with me for four years, not having a job himself. He just, you know, moved along with me, and, you know, we just decided that we didn't want to split up. So, you know, that would have been 1983. And we spent four years in Connecticut. After four years there, 00:11:00we thought since both of our families were from Kentucky or lived in Kentucky at least, we wanted to move back. So, that was very important to us and got more important after we spent more time away from Kentucky. It's like we just--we wanted to get back. And this is a common theme with Kentuckians. You know, they move away, but they always come back. And so, we were kind of like that as well. Same time, our families were getting older. You know, Michael's parents were getting older. My parents were getting older. And so, we wanted to be at--and we had--we had a lot of nieces and nephews also who were living here. And so, we were missing a lot of those milestones in their lives. So, we decided that we wanted to move back to Kentucky. So, in 1987, we moved back. And after we moved back in '87, we bought our house in Saint Matthews in the Louisville suburbs. And we've been in that same house for over thirty years now. So, from that point on, you know, things 00:12:00have been fairly stable. We've had a couple of, you know, job shifts and changes and those kind of things. But we've lived in the same community for thirty years. We've gone to the same church for thirty years. We've been active members there. And, you know, we just are as happy as we can be about living our--our kind of, you know, boring traditional suburban Kentucky life.

POSTON: So, in thinking about the--the first moment you all had together right here at UK and in the broader--beyond the university, in the broader community of Lexington, what spaces did you find most engaging or helpful, and what spaces did you find that were maybe most exclusionary and--and more difficult?

BOURKE: So, after I came to UK--as I said, I didn't know anyone here. So, I was trying to make connections. 00:13:00And I--I do recall that early on, there was an ad I saw in The Kentucky Kernel, which is the student newspaper, very small ad about a student--a gay student group that was going to have a meeting in the student center here. And at this point, I didn't know anyone. So, I thought, "Oh, that sounds interesting. I'm going--I'm going to check that out and--and just see what it's about and see if I can meet some people." So, this was going to be a meeting. It was late in the day. It was like six o'clock maybe. So, it was after class. Most classes were over. There weren't a lot--were not a lot of night classes in those days. So, things were fairly quiet. So, I remember going over to the student center, anticipating joining this meeting. And I got there, and someone had called in a bomb threat. So, from that point on, I was like--I don't ever remember seeing anything else about any attempts to start a gay or lesbian student group here on campus, and I really didn't seek it out because it--you know, 00:14:00it kind of freaked me about anyway. So, that felt a little threatening to me. And that--that was not very cool. But, you know, in terms of welcoming places, places where I always felt comfortable, there was, of course, The Bar here in town, which you've heard me speak about. And Michael and I used to spend a lot of time there. That was the community center for gay people. There were no other options in those days. So, people would go and, you know, hang out and drink and--and dance and--and, you know, that was where people went to connect. There were not venues or spaces on campus. There weren't coffee shops. You know, there weren't those kind of places where you could go and just connect with other gay people. So, The Bar was really the hub of gay life and gay community in Lexington in those days. One exception to that would be, and another very welcoming space, was the Kentucky Theater in town. You know, there--there were often shows that were--that catered to the 00:15:00LGBT community that were shown in the Kentucky Theater. And, you know, people would show up, and you'd always see folks that you knew there. So, that was always a very welcoming place to go. And I know Michael and I spent a lot of time there back in the day, just, you know, attending those shows and enjoying some of that sense of community. We also--and Lexington in those days--Michael and I have been lifelong practicing Roman Catholics. So, we--we used to go to St. Paul Church here in town. We lived on Upper Street. So, we could walk over to St. Paul in just a few minutes. And so, that was our regular place of worship. When we did that, we, you know, tried to be as, you know, under the cover--under cover as we could. And--but we always found it to be very welcoming, and we felt comfortable there. I'm not sure that all the churches in town would have made us feel that way. But, you know, 00:16:00that--that was another place that we used to go to frequently when we were here. And we could do it as a couple, and we did it as a couple. And there was no judgement or condemnation.

POSTON: Beautiful. So, you--you mentioned--right--yeah, you just talked a bit about the--the religious space, the Catholic church here in town that you found to be a space that was helpful or one that you--you returned to many times and that you found some sense of community with. From those moments through the rest of your life, what impact has religion had on--you know, on who you are and what you've done and those sorts of things?

BOURKE: Well, religion's been very important to me personally but also very important to--to Michael and me together. You know, as I said, I--I was born and raised Catholic. And--and even though, you know, 00:17:00I dated and was involved with a lot of other people, you know, I always feel like the fact that Michael and I are both Catholic and we share that faith is something that has really brought us closer together. You know, when you come from an old Catholic family like I do, it's like there's so much emphasis on--if you're--you know, when you get married to stay in the faith. I mean, seriously. And a lot of--a lot of faiths are like that. But, you know, we--we grew up hearing that from our parents. You know, "Find a nice Catholic girl," of course. But the fact that we shared that faith, I think, has really helped us dramatically. We're still very engaged with our faith. As I said, Michael and I--we practiced in Lexington. We practiced regularly when we lived in Connecticut. And then, of course, when we moved back to Kentucky in 1987, we joined our parish that was just a block and a half from our house that we bought. So, it was--it was convenient. 00:18:00One of the things that we did very early on was that we made it known to the--the pastor there that we were a gay couple and we wanted to make sure that that was not going to be an issue. This was, you know, 1987. So, times were different. And to our surprise, the pastor did not have a problem with that. He was perfectly okay with it. So, that--that really helped us in a lot of respects, feeling welcome there and kind of getting started in--in that particular parish with a lot of the activities that we've been engaged with over the years. And there have been many. I've been a communion minister at the church for probably--well, over twenty years. I've served on the worship committee. I've been involved in a lot of other ministries. Michael has also been involved in--in a lot of ministries. He's, you know, been on the parish council. He's--what else has he done? He's been on the ground committee, the baking committee. 00:19:00Michael's served as the soccer coach when our kids were young. I served as a Girl Scout leader and a Boy Scout leader for many years at the troops that were affiliated with the church. So, we just have a really long deep history with our parish. And, you know, that has only helped us, I think, to deepen our--our sense of faith and our connection to the Catholic faith and tradition. So, it's something that's been very important to us, and it just gets deeper and deeper over the years. There have, however, been times when that has been a little more difficult and perhaps a little more controversial, not so much at our parish, but with other representatives of--of the Catholic Church, most notably with Archbishop Kurtz in Louisville. We've had some--some disagreements, as I said, 00:20:00nothing that we haven't been able--able to handle or kind of move past. But, you know, we've had some--some situations where, for example, Archbishop Kurtz would not allow me to return to service with our Boy Scout troop. We've had a situation where our memorial on our tombstone was denied, the design was denied by the Archdiocese of Louisville because they thought it was too controversial. And really, all we were talking about were a couple of images that the Archdiocese found objectionable. So, things like interlocking rings and a very modest image of, of the Supreme Court, so things that were not really out of character with other memorials that were in any of the Catholic cemeteries in Louisville. But we were clearly isolated, you know, and targeted because our--our design was denied. 00:21:00(coughs) Excuse me. So, we've had some--some not so pleasant encounters with some representatives of the Catholic Church. I can go on. But for the most part, at our particular parish, Our Lady of Lourdes, we had been universally received well and treated well. People have rallied to our side to show support over the years over and over and over again. And--and that's something that has only, I think, helped to deepen our faith and--and our connection to the Catholic Church.

POSTON: You mentioned conflict around the Boy Scouts and--and your church and you in that space. Can you tell us a little more about that?

BOURKE: Right. So, the--the--our journey with the Boy Scouts specifically started when our son--so, we have two adopted children. I really didn't talk about--two adopted children. Our children also attended 00:22:00Catholic school. So, our parish has a church school, and our children started there in preschool. So, they did preschool through eighth grade at Our Lady of Lourdes School. So, the way the Scouts are--when a boy hits first grade, there's, there's a pretty heavy push to try to get them enrolled in--in scouting, same for the girls in kindergarten. But first grade, our son came home from school with a flyer from the Boy Scouts, and they were recruiting. They were going to have a meeting. And he wanted to sign up. Well, Michael and I were painfully aware of the position of the Boy Scouts that existed in those days that prohibited gay membership. So, either youth membership or adult leaders--gay people--gay and lesbian people were taboo. They just were totally not allowed, and that's because the Boy Scouts of America has been, and still is, 00:23:00mostly sponsored by religious institutions. So, when our son came home with the flyer and said, "I want to be a Cub Scout," Michael and I did something that we rarely do. We said no. (laughs) You know, it's like--it's hard to say no to your kids, and we rarely do it. But we did then. We were just like--we did not want him to be involved in a group that, you know, kind of, you know, sponsored that type of thinking. And--and so, we just said, "You can't do that." Well, a year later, the same thing happened again. So, they were recruiting again, and he really wanted to do it. A lot of his friends were--were doing it. Nearly all the boys were involved at that point. And so, he really--our son came to us and made a very strong appeal to join. Well, we--we reluctantly agreed to let him do that, and we had no idea what we were getting involved in because, in those days, 00:24:00and even now, Cub Scouts at a very young age require one on one participation. So, any time you got--got a first or second grader or even a third grade Cub Scout in any activity, you need to have a parent or--or some other sponsoring adult with him. So--so, we very quickly got pulled into that world where we were--and it was largely Michael a lot to start out--would attend meetings and, you know, participate in outdoor activities and so on. But by the end of that second grade, the leadership of our troop started to fall away. And Boy Scout troops and Cub Scout units all function on volunteer leadership. And so, that's when, you know, we kind of got ourselves in a situation where we had to step up and help become leaders for the troop. And, you know, by the time--by the time we got into the start 00:25:00of the third grade for our son, it's like--I was registering to be an adult leader with the Boy Scouts of America. That made me a little uncomfortable because I was aware of their policy. And so, what that forced me to do was something that was very foreign to me. I had to go back in the closet with the Boy Scouts. Now, at our church, at the school our children attended, everybody knew that Michael and I were gay. I mean, absolutely everybody knew that. But when I signed up to be a Boy Scout leader, I had to go back in the closet at scouting events because I was concerned that if that became known, that would be a real issue. And--and so, when I was involved in scouting activities, particularly away from the church and away from the school, so, you know, on scout properties and jamborees and different things, I would have to go out and basically act straight, which was very, very 00:26:00painful. You know, after--at that point, I'd been out for--I don't know--over twenty years. It's like it's, you know, hard to go back in and live that double life after you've not been doing it for a very long time and been open and honest. So, the--my participation as an adult Boy Scout leader required me to do that. And I did that for about six years, and I couldn't take it anymore. So--so, at that point, I said, "You know, I've just had enough of this," and, you know, started to not hide that. And ultimately--excuse me--that led to a series of events that resulted in the Boy Scouts forcing me to--to leave my position of leadership. There was a lot of back and forth with the pastor at my church, who backed me and said, "I'm not going to force him to resign. That's not my job. Boy Scouts, this is your issue. You need to something 00:27:00about it." So, I was surprised, you know, my pastor backed me. My scout troop backed me. The people at the parish backed me. But the Lincoln Heritage Council of the Boy Scouts of America was insistent. And in those days, they used to perform witch hunts on a regular basis. So, this would have been 2011 then--2012. It was extremely common for--if they got any wind of a person, either a youth--but particularly adults, who was gay or lesbian--it's like that was just absolutely unacceptable. And they would go to any means possible to--to get people out. And so, that's what happened to me. The Boy Scouts of America actually approached the pastor of our church and said, "If you don't get him out, we are going to disband your troop." And, you know, that was something that I found unacceptable, and so, I chose--I chose 00:28:00to leave at that point so that the troop would not have to be disbanded. But that--that kind of launched a whole other career for me as--as an activist. So, from that point on, I got engaged with a variety of organizations, particularly Scouts for Equality to--to lobby for and--and to press the Boy Scouts of America to change its membership policies. And we ultimately were successful. We participated in protests and rallies, some of which were very public, at Boy Scout headquarters in Dallas. And, you know, gradually over time, the Boy Scouts backed off a lot of their policies. So, first they voted to allow gay youth to be members. And then, a couple of years after that, they agreed to allow adult--gay adult--gay and lesbian adult members to participate in Boy Scouts. But they had the caveat that sponsoring organizations like my church 00:29:00would have the option of having its own membership policy that would overlay the Boy Scouts' policy. So, the Boy Scouts did not prohibit gay people from being leaders, but any church might be able to do that. So--in fact, what's happened is, in the--in the U.S. today and even know in 2017, any scout troop that's sponsored by the--the Mormon church or the Catholic church will not allow gay or lesbian people to be adult members. And that's just, you know, the current state of the nation. So, yeah, that--that kind of situation carries on. So, that prevents me from returning to membership at the troop where I was--yeah--I was involved for over ten years, and I was a registered leader for six years without ever any incident. I mean, it was--it was a sad, sad day, I think, for my troop when I had to--you know, I had to resign and kind of back off and turn in my keys and really kind of distance myself from a lot of--a lot of the operations there. 00:30:00Now having said that, there are still a few things that I get to do, even though I'm not a registered scout leader. For example, this weekend I was--this weekend just past I spent time working with one of my former scouts. I've been an Eagle coach for--I don't know--a half dozen boys over the last two years, just helping them as an official coach. So, you don't have to be a registered adult to do that. But I'm working as a coach to kind of help them get through the project, the Eagle project, planning and execution phases. So, I've still found ways to kind of stay engaged with--with the troop and with some of the boys, even though I'm not permitted to be a registered scout leader anymore.

POSTON: So, your work with the Scouts certainly has--has--sounds like a significant part of your life and your activism and something that continues. An equally large 00:31:00or larger part of your activism or story--right--from the outside is--is centered on marriage equality. Tell us about how you became involved there and what that looks like.

BOURKE: Gosh, that's really even hard to describe that. It--it happened so quickly. Michael and I didn't plan to get involved for many, many years. You know, it's not the kind of thing that--that we strategized about. I will say that we got married. And I should put that into perspective. We actually got legally married in Ontario, Canada in 2004. So, that was long before we ever filed a lawsuit. So, in 2004 in the Commonwealth of Kentucky, there was a campaign to get a constitutional amendment passed that banned same sex marriage, a successful one. The--same sex marriage was banned by the people of Kentucky. They voted seventy-five percent 00:32:00in favor of banning same sex marriage. And that was a very, very painful time for gay and lesbian people in the Commonwealth because there was so much hate that was whipped up that we all had to endure. So, this was all going on around 2004. And this was largely in response to what was happening in other parts of the country, in New York State and in Massachusetts, some other more progressive parts of the country. There were strong movements to allow--and legal challenges to allow same sex marriage. So, a lot of states, particularly southern states, got these amendments started and passed to prevent that from ever happening in their backyard. So, in 2004, Michael and I decided we had to do something. You know, it's like--there--there was so much hate in the state. (laughs) Like we--we felt like we had to do something to kind of counter them. So, we decided, at that point, that the one place in North America where we could get legally married was Ontario, Canada. So, we decided 00:33:00that we were going to drive to Canada and have a marriage ceremony so--that would be legal. And our thinking was, and our hope was that perhaps, at some point in our lifetime, that would be recognized in Kentucky. We never would have imagined that things worked out the way they did, that we would actually be part of making that happen. But, you know, in 2004, it's like--we had one of those situations where we've got to do something. This is something we can do. And so, that's what we did. Now, I guess if you fast forward through a lot more of our lives--we adopt two kids. You know, we're working our jobs for many, many years. My husband's been at GE and GE Appliances forever. I've been at Humana for--you know, twenty--twenty-eight years of service, I guess, on his part. I've got twenty-four years at my employer. So, we just kind moved on with our lives and, you know, raising a family and living our lives. And then, there 00:34:00started to be more and more legal challenges on the national level, not in Kentucky. There was nothing going on in Kentucky. But the national level--there were other things that were happening, like Prop 8 challenge and Edie Windsor's case. So, our involvement in marriage equality didn't even start until--or even thinking about it until the day after the Windsor decision was announced. At that point, there was a lot of interest in marriage equality and what kind of doors might be opened across various states as a result of--of those two rulings. And then, you know, Michael--I remember I was at work one day, and Michael sent me an email saying, "Hey, I found out there's--" through one of his HR managers at GE, that there was an attorney in town that was looking for potential plaintiffs to perhaps challenge Kentucky's 00:35:00law--Kentucky's constitutional amendment. And, you know, I guess we thought about it for a few--just a few minutes and decided to go ahead with that. And that was kind of out of--out of character for us, kind of an impulse thing we did. We didn't plan it. It was an opportunity, I think, that emerged. And we were so swept up in, in, I think, the joy, the jubilation of those decisions, Prop 8 and Windsor, that we thought, "Oh, this--this might be a possibility." Even though we knew the odds were very much against us in Kentucky, we thought, "You know, if it can happen--if it can happen there, why can't it happen here in Kentucky?" So, you know, we--we signed--you know, I--I remember we waited just a little while, and we talked about it. And we thought, "Let somebody else do this." You know, we thought, "There's got to be other people out there who want 00:36:00to do this." And--and we waited just a bit. And from what we could tell, nobody was stepping forward. Nothing was happening. So, you know, Michael and I said, "Okay, if--if we have to, we can do this," because we were pretty confident with who we were and where we were. We were both out at our jobs. You know, we're comfortable--we were comfortable in our community. We felt accepted and loved by people in our neighborhood and our church. And so, we--we had the--the backing and the strength, I think, to feel like we could do this, win or lose. You know, it really wasn't--we didn't feel like it was a sure thing in any way. In fact, we felt very much like it was us against the world. When we filed our lawsuit, we were the only plaintiffs. There were two attorneys in town, and there was Michael and me. And we--we filed our lawsuit. We were the first southern state to challenge 00:37:00a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage in the South. So, it was really a big deal when that happened. And--and I guess we didn't think about that so much because I wasn't even aware of that until we did it. And then, I started reading about, you know, some of the--some of the news coverage. It was like, "Oh, I didn't--I didn't even realize that this was first." And I didn't think about it that much, the fact that we were going out on a limb like that. I do recall some--some of the early coverage that we got, which was mostly favorable, here in the state, but not universal. But--but I can remember reading some--in those days, the local papers or--or any--even a national publication would post an article and readers could comment at will on these articles. And so, when we filed our lawsuit, I can remember reading some--some of the comments that people left. And it was frightening. And Michael will tell you 00:38:00the same thing. So, we got some--some advice from folks very early on. Don't read the comments. (laughs) So, we stopped doing that. But--but it was really troubling. I guess we didn't realize how--how far out there we were and how much we stirred up people on both sides of the issue by going to that level of actually filing a lawsuit. You know, we were sitting in Kentucky, which was deeply a--and still is deeply a conservative red state. And we had the--we had a situation before us where, at that time, we had a Democratic governor in Steve Beshear, and we had a Democratic Attorney General. And we had to name those people in our lawsuit. So, we were actually suing a couple--a couple of Democrats. And so, that was 00:39:00--that was kind of difficult for them. I mean, it was difficult for us. But it was difficult for them because these were people that we voted for, you know, that on--on their policies, particularly social policies, we endorsed what they did pretty much across the board. And yet, to--to make a point and to try to move the issue forward, we had to challenge them and actually sue them to recognize our legal marriage that had taken place in Canada. And that was a really challenging thing for us to do. And so, pretty much everybody was mad at us at first, you know, the Democrats and the Republicans. And it's like--(laughs)--we only had the really--most progressive wing that, I think, was on our side. And over time, over the, you know, two-plus-years that we were involved in--in this case and kind of moving it forward and moving forward, more and more people got on board. But initially it was a very kind of challenging situation for us because we really felt like it was just us against the world. And we didn't realize 00:40:00what we had started when--when we first agreed to file that lawsuit. It was--it--you know, it came home pretty quickly what we had gotten ourselves into. And of course, there was no place to hide. (laughs) We just had no choice but--but to carry on. And then, of course, the case evolved, and we added additional plaintiffs to our case. There were other states that were in those days, in 2012, in 2013, it was just a matter of time until every state in the country that didn't have marriage equality, someone, some couple had filed a lawsuit in every state. But Kentucky, in those days, happened to be ahead of the curve, which was very nice for a change, that we were given that notoriety, I guess, to get out there. Of course, we were the last to get over the finish line--(laughs)--with the Supreme Court ruling. 00:41:00But at least we got the process started a little earlier.

POSTON: So, what--in--all of this, what role did family play in--in motivating and continuing to give you energy through that legal process?

BOURKE: Well, I would say family was our motivation for filing the lawsuit. We have two adopted children. Kentucky's laws do not allow non-married people to jointly adopt children. So, when we adopted children in 1999 and 2000, we had to adopt those as single parent adoptions. So, Michael was the adoptive father for our two children. But because the Commonwealth of Kentucky did not recognize our legal marriage, they would not allow me to co-adopt the children. So, 1999 and 2000 up until, you know, 2015 when the ruling was made, I was not recognized legally 00:42:00as a parent for our children. So, that was--that was our motivation for filing the lawsuit. I--we wanted to be able to provide our children with kind of that stability and to know that they have two parents. We--we didn't emphasize that with our kids as they were growing up. We didn't--you know, we always told them that we're married. In fact, our children were at our marriage in 2004. They participated in the service. So, they knew we were married. But we never drew attention to the fact that the Commonwealth of Kentucky didn't recognize our marriage because that had a lot of legal scary ramifications for children. You know, if something ever happened to Michael and--and we would have passed while the kids were still minors, I had really not much of a legal relationship to them except what we were able to kind of cobble together with, you know--with our attorneys. So, it left our children at risk, and it left me at risk as a parent of having to 00:43:00face the prospect of--of losing my children. So, we wanted our kids to feel--and we wanted other kids in Kentucky and really throughout the whole country who were in similar situations to be able to feel confident that, you know, they have legal parents, and they have the same rights and protections that other kids had. Our kids didn't have that. So--so, we filed our lawsuit. That really was our justification in our minds when we said, "If we're going to do this, this is why we should do it." As far as our families go, they were extremely supportive. You know, my family, Michael's family--they all rallied to our side. So, family was important. There was no one, absolutely no one who had any kind of a problem with our filing. They--you know, they knew us. At that point, Michael and I had been together for--I can't even tell you how many 00:44:00--at least, you know, thirty years, I guess, when it all started. So, I mean, everyone in our families were totally used to the fact that, you know, we were a couple, we were together, we were together forever. And so, they were very much on board and supportive of what we were trying to do.

POSTON: Can you--what--can you recall sort of the day that the ruling came down in the Supreme Court and what that--where you were and what that felt like?

BOURKE: So, Michael and I and our two children were fortunate to be present in the courtroom on decision day. We were there for oral arguments in April, and then, we were back in June on decision day. We were--it--it's just hard to describe that whole situation. And that's probably the one question we get asked more than anything else. It's like--what was it like? Well, it was a great honor to be there, for one thing, to actually be in the court because there was so much anticipation over--over that decision. There were 00:45:00thousands of people outside, you know, just armies of media set up for what might happen. I mean, the day we were there, there was no guarantee that there--there would be a ruling that day. But, you know, we kind of took a chance. And so, we got the kids out of school and went to Washington and--and we were fortunate to be in the room when the decision started. One of the things about being at the Supreme Court for something like that--security is extremely tight. So, people were cautioned on oral arguments day and then on decision day. It's like there will be no tolerance of outbursts, you know, there--you know, no shows of emotion. So, it was really a challenging situation when the ruling came down and, you know, Judge Kennedy started reading his decision because it was so emotional. And anyone who has 00:46:00read his words, I think, especially anyone in the LGBT community who reads those words can help but be moved by those. And so, we were sitting in court, you know, holding hands. We knew that we had to be restrained when you just wanted to get up and kind of start, you know, whooping and hollering and yelling and making a lot of noise. But you know, you had--you know, you had security everywhere, and they would have dragged you out of the room if you did that. So, we had to be very restrained. But it was--it was just so powerful to hear those words and to be able to experience having some of the justices making eye contact with you, to be--you know, I mean, to be that close and to have them looking at you while the decision was--was being read. It was just incredible. Of course, the decisions were read, you know, both Kennedy and Roberts read the--the opposing decision. And so, when that finally 00:47:00wrapped up, we were able to--to leave the court, not without incident. So, we were denied our walk down the front of the Supreme Court steps because there had been a bomb threat out front, again with the bomb threats, right? So, we couldn't go out the front door of the Supreme Court and down the main steps. We had to go out through a side door, and then, we were ushered around to the front of the building to kind of--kind of meet the press and the crowds. But that was the one experience in my life that is probably the most joyous I've ever felt, just the--the universal joy that people were experiencing. And there were thousands of people outside. You know, they had gotten the word obviously before any of us got out. So, you know, they were prepared. And, you know, it just--I felt like they were going to thank people 00:48:00and put us up on their shoulders and start carrying us around. It was really just an--an incredible experience for our family. You know, and to be able to share that, you know, with our kids was--was fantastic. You know, it's the kind of thing that you know you're only going to be experience once in your life. So, we did our best to enjoy it as best we could. We were the only Kentucky plaintiffs that were present in court that day. We feel a little slighted because we weren't here to celebrate in the Commonwealth. The other Kentucky plaintiffs were here. They were in Louisville. You know, there were a lot a doings there and--and a rally that took place that we had to miss. But you know, I don't think I would have traded that experience in Washington on that day for anything in the world. It was--it was very powerful. (laughs)

POSTON: So, in thinking about other things you're up to these days, what--what other kinds of activism and advocacy are you involved in, 00:49:00other things connected to LGBTQI locally or nationally?

BOURKE: A few things. One would be at work. So, as I think I mentioned, I worked at Humana for twenty-four years. I was one of the founding members of our LGBTQ employee resource group that started about six years ago that was not an easy thing to get done. I tried a couple of times early nineties and then again in the early 2000s. And the companies was not ready to do that, to have any affinity groups whatsoever. But we started a group now about seven years ago. So, I was one of the founding members of that group that has now grown to over two thousand associates. So, we've got--you know, nationwide, Humana has two thousand folks, including a lot of allies, who are part of our pride network resource group. This group has been 00:50:00instrumental in really so much at Humana. But the most important thing is that they have successfully maintained a perfect score of one hundred on the HRC Corporate Equality Index. So, our--that group is very active. We do--we do a lot of things. We do volunteer activities sometimes with our other network resource groups. We work to develop products and messages and--and resources for the LGBTQ community. So, there's a lot that we're doing around that network resource group that--that keeps me busy work-related. You know, other than that, Michael and I still are very involved with the University of Kentucky, for example. We're both founding members of the LGBTQ alumni group, PrideCats at the University of Kentucky. But I also have the distinction of being involved with alumni groups at the University of Louisville and at the University of Notre Dame. 00:51:00University of Notre Dame has an alumni group that still has not been recognized formally by the Notre Dame Alumni Association. So, I've been very, very active the last few years in trying to lobby for that recognition and work for that recognition. So--so, I'm involved with three different alumni association groups. All are LGBTQ affinity groups. And I find that work to be very, very rewarding. You know, the work that I do with the University of Kentucky is something that I can do with Michael and--and we work on together. So, it's kind of a shared interest that we have. And then, of course, there's work that--that we do every day in our church, you know, both just by being present in our--in our parish and active in our parish. But we also lobby and--and do what we can to try to move forward the Church's position, the Catholic Church's position on being welcoming and inclusive for LGBTQ people because there's still a lot of work there that has to be done with the Catholic Church. 00:52:00But, you know, I've been--I'm sixty years into this. And I'll be a Catholic until the day I die. So it's like--so, I'm going to keep banging away on that until we make some more progress. And--and I really think that we're kind of on the cusp of--of turning the corner with the Catholic Church.

POSTON: So, to sort of wrap us up here, what do you want to share that we haven't asked?

BOURKE: That's always--that's always a difficult question. You know, I don't know what to say about that. I've talked a lot about my experiences in the Commonwealth. One thing I probably would point out--and Michael and I say this all the time--is we've taken a position in our lives of if we leave, they win. So, that's kind of our motto. And so, we've kind of put down roots different places and in different organizations and felt like 00:53:00if--if we left, that the world would not be a better place for it. So, we feel like by staying put and staying visible and being authentic and true and who we are, that sends a message to people and organizations about who we are and the fact that we don't feel like that we have anything to hide. We don't feel like we need to, you know, in any way, change who we are, either individually or--or as a couple or a family. And so, we have gone into places like our places of employment, into our churches, into various educational institutions, and we've just said, "This is who we are, and we're comfortable with it. And we want to give you the opportunity to get comfortable with it to." And if you give people and institutions long enough to get over their fears and misconceptions about you, that--that typically works well. And that has worked well for us. But it's--it's not like we haven't faced a lot of criticism and controversy getting to those points, most notably with the church. 00:54:00That's been really the--you know, kind of the hardest hurdle to get past. But, you know, again, I'm confident that we're going to get there and that we're going to see some really dramatic change in our lifetimes.

POSTON: Thank you.

BOURKE: Thank you.

[End of interview.]