Interview with Nelson Fields, April 11, 2018

Sisko: I am Adriana Sisko, and it is April 11th, and I'm at the Louie B. Nunn Center, conducting an interview with Nelson Fields for the Out South Project. Thank you for joining me Nelson.

Fields: Thank you for having me.

Sisko: No problem. All right. Now, tell me a little bit about yourself in general.

Fields: Well, I --(coughs)-- I'm a faculty member uh, professor at the University of Kentucky. I've been here twenty-one years. Uh, I um, was an undergraduate uh in the 1970s. I, uh, started out here and then, um, I quit and went away and worked for a while. And then I eventually came back to finish my degree in the mid-eighties.

Sisko: All right. Now we're going to start early.

Fields: ----------(??).

Sisko: So we're going to go back to childhood.

Fields: Okay.

Sisko: --(laughs)--Yes. So tell me a little bit about your upbringing. Where you were? How it was?

Fields: Well, I was raised--um, I was born in Harlan, Kentucky. Um, but I don't have much memory of that time. Uh, when I was hmm, about 00:01:00five or six uh, my family moved to Georgetown, which is a small community just north of Lexington. I, I was raised there. Uh, I have, uh--I'm one of six children. Uh, I was raised in uh, a Southern Baptist household. My family, uh--almost all of my family is from eastern Kentucky. Um, I had--um, ----------(??) I'm probably--I'm not a total first generation college--go to college, but um, some of my other siblings did. Uh, but probably I've, you know, I've gone the furthest in terms of getting a master's degree. Um, yeah, I think my childhood was with six kids,--we were--my sister kind of raised my younger brothers and I. I have one sister and five brothers, uh, four brothers. There were five boys and one girl. Um, and I have memories of my sister who was older, kind of raising us. I have 00:02:00a youngest brother, I think, when he came along --(coughs)-- um, my younger brother,--my other younger brother and I were all a handful, I'm sure. And uh, so she kind of you know, took us under her wing and um, took care of us a lot. Um, I--you know, we lived initially out in the country. Um. We had a--we lived in a big um, farmhouse. My dad worked for the phone company. Um, my brothers and I, we ran and played and just, you know,--I think we were--it was a family of boys, and we were all wild. --(both laugh)-- We used to joke that, you know, we were just, you know, wild children. Um, and we moved into the town after about three years and we moved around a lot uh, as kids. I mean, we--we were always in the same community, but we would be three years in one house and then we'd moved to another. And my --(coughs)--we always rented 00:03:00houses and I think it was always my dad's dream to have, his own home and his own property, and not um.--(coughs)-- So when I was about uh, maybe eighth grade, we were living in town. We had again--we had moved from one house to another. My dad came home one day and announced that he had bought some land, and we were gonna build a house. Uh, by that time, my--uh, well, as a child, my oldest brother, he was really gone before I could remember. He was--because there's like a twenty year span of children. So my oldest brother, he was in the navy. He was already gone. Um sometime before we found out about the house, he got married. Um, and my sister by then had gone. Uh, had another older brother. He moved out pretty quickly. So, by the time my dad came in and found this land, there was just the remaining three boys. Uh, I was the 00:04:00oldest of that set, and uh, so we were really excited. It was like, Oh. When are we gonna move? And he said, "Well, be about 18 months." And we were like, What do you mean? And he said, "Well, we have to build the house." And we were all like, Well, doesn't take that long to build a house.--(Sisko laughs)-- And my dad announced he was gonna build it himself. So he did.--(coughs)--He um,--he on the--basically--once--he uh,--he would hire out. He acted as the contractor. So there were things he couldn't do. So he obviously couldn't dig the basement. So he hired somebody to come and dig the basement. He kind of drew out the plans for the house and they came, dug the basement. They poured the foundation. They did the uh, the basic block work for the basement. And then he began laying the floors and he would go out there every day after work and work until eleven, twelve at night. On the weekends, he was there, you know, first thing in the morning on Saturday. And he worked all the way until 00:05:00midnight on Saturday and Sunday. Same thing. And for eighteen months, he, you know,-- every now and then he would get to a part. Well, I can't do the brick work. So he would hire somebody to do that. My oldest brother would come home on leave, and he would go out and help him. Of course, he took us out there to help, my younger brothers and I, but of course, that--we didn't do much helping.--(laughs)--Um --(coughs)--and so it was, it was an interesting process. And eventually we moved into the house and then I finished uh, my high school years in that house then before I, I uh, moved out. Came to UK [University of Kentucky] eventually.

Sisko: Had your father ever done any projects like this before? (Fields laughs) Or is this the first time he was in charge of building a whole house?

Fields: Well, he no--I mean--he was uh--my father was a--he was a real inventor. My sister always would say he was an inventor. He, he just 00:06:00would--he--he--he really--well, at one point he told me how much he didn't like his job and, and I was kind of like, Why are you doing--(laughs)-- then? And (laughs) he's like, Well, I have this family support."And--(coughs)--so when he retired and after we were in the house, I, I think he--you know, it was like he was always looking for the thing that he most wanted to do. And I think that was just, you know, that desire to have that home. I mean, I think, you know, with six kids and I mean, I know that when he retired, you know, I, I you know, I saw what he was making. I was like, How do you raise six kids on that amount of money? So I'm sure there was never any you know, there was never any extra there to make a down payment or those kinds of things. And I think that he figured out how he could have his home, but it meant he was going to have to do it. Now, was he good at those kinds of skill? Yes, he had those skills. I mean, he knew he could do carpentry work and, you know, he could do plumbing and he could do the electricity. He had to hire somebody to 00:07:00come in and get it approved. But he did all those things. And--and he was very--you know, he was one of those people that he always wanted to go to college and he never got to. Um.--(coughs)--he--I think he did do one semester at Berea, but then he, you know, like my mother had to leave and be--help out at home. And so I think his desire to have that was so strong that he was willing to do what it took, which, it was, I mean, it was quite an extraordinary thing. Of course, at the time I, you know, had no clue. It was many years later that I kind of realized what he had accomplished. Um. And he took great pride in that home. He, he--it was, it was something he created. Both my mother and he did. And I think the whole family did, in a way.

Sisko: Is the house still around?

Fields: The house is still around. It eventually was sold to my niece, who--as they lived--my niece lived in it with her family for a while 00:08:00before they had to move. Uh, and it's now been sold. And I, you know, I don't know who has it now, but it's still there. And it's, it--I think it was a real testament to him. Um--(coughs)--again, what I started a minute ago, he, he was a real inventor. And my--he--when we were closing up that house, you know, my sister was down there trying to find all of my dad's invent--you know--he--whenever he needed something, he would just make it. He would--he would create it, um. And when he retired, he never--I think for me, that was a great,--uh,--he was a great role model because he never, he was never bored when he retired. He, he so disliked his job. He knew exact--and he did. He read. He had his garden and the land he had. The property he bought was about an acre. So as soon as he got we got moved in, he started planning fruit 00:09:00trees. He had a garden. And in his retirement, he sat there and nurtured that garden and nurtured those plants. Did everything he could to attract any kind of bird he could to the property. Um, and he, you know, in the winter, he would stockpile projects. So he never, he never stopped moving. He'd just, you know, to the day he died, he was still trying to move and he wouldn't sit still. And I admired that about him. He was very--um--I mean--and so I hope for myself when I retire, I can do the same thing. That I can um,--you know, he and my mom traveled as much as they could. They didn't, they didn't go abroad, but they, you know, they'd get in the car and they would go. They would go visit us wherever we happened to be. You know, I worked for a number of years in Texas, and they would come visit me there. They would go visit my brother in New Mexico. I had--my oldest brother was in Canada, and they of course, they stopped at any, --you know, they stopped to see, um, you 00:10:00know, the national parks. They, you know, he, he loved, he loved being outside. And so those kinds of trips. You know, uh, for a long time, they had a house in Florida in the winter, um. And, you know, they would leave and drive to Florida in October, November and come back in April, but they would take two or three days and just, you know, he'd take the old backroads. He wouldn't get on the interstate a lot of times and they would just stop and eat and stay overnight someplace, and, you know, um. So he--that, that upbringing was really special to me, and I look back on it, um and he and my mom,--it's amazing what they accomplished, I think.

Sisko: Yeah. Sounds like quite the pair of characters, honestly.--

Fields: --well they are.--

Sisko: --Yeah. Yeah--

Fields: --He was. I mean they both are. --(coughs)--

Sisko: --Certainly.--

Fields: --(coughs)--

Sisko: Certainly. Uh, you mentioned briefly high school.--

Fields: --Um-hm--

Sisko: So I wanted to ask you about what your high school is like, and what your high school experience was like.

Fields: --Well, --(laughs)--

Sisko: --and remind me specifically which city in Kentucky you were in.

Fields: Georgetown--

Sisko: --Right. Georgetown.--

Fields: --In Georgetown.

Sisko: --Yes. So what was high school like in Georgetown?

Fields: Well, I think for me, it was--it was a pretty miserable existence.--(laughs)--I, I did not um --(sighs)-- uh, you know, I was always,--(sighs)-- kind of the out--I was an outsider. I was not, um, um, you know, because I was gay, you know, everybody knew it. Everybody but me, apparently.--(laughs)--(both laugh) And so, you know, I went through all of that. You know, I was called, you know, you ----------(??)--you pick a name, I was called it at some point. Um, I used to say, you know, getting off the bus in the morning at school was like walking a gantlet because there was like all these, you know, guys standing on that side, you know, and you just got called every name there was. Um, I was fortunate in that uh, right after I got into high school, I, I met uh, an English teacher who was uh,--she 00:12:00directed the plays. And I was in her English class as a sophomore, and they had had auditions for the fall play and I did, I didn't know a thing about theater. I didn't really--I had no background--no--um--and she was talking about it in, in class. And I think she said they needed some help. Yeah, I, I don't know with what, but for some reason I said, "Well",--I went up after class and said, "Well, can I help? Is there something I can do?" And she said,--and--I'm still not quite sure how this all happened anyway, at some point she said, "Well, we still have one role that needs to be done. And--and would you maybe be interested in that?" And I said, "Well, what? Yeah. Sure." Well, they were doing Arsenic and Old Lace, and they needed somebody to be the dead body. (both laugh) And so--

Sisko: Good movie.

Fields: --and I was like, well, I'll do that, you know. Well, 00:13:00ultimately, I wound up with another small role. I kind of doubled as that. And then there was a little man named Mr. Gibbs that I, I wound up doing that role um, and I didn't know what I was doing. But once I got into that, there were all these people kind of like me. Right? There, there were people that--they didn't seem to care who I was. I mean, we still didn't talk about it. But, you know,--and I certainly was not out by any stretch at that point. Um, but we still--you know, it was--I was comfortable with this group of people and--and uh, I felt safe really kind of for the first time, you know. So I got involved with that. Well, ironically, of course,--(laughs)--I, I go home to tell my parents that I'm in this play and I'm, I'm sure looking, looking back on it, you know, I can't remember what the reaction was, but I'm sure it must have been, He's going to do what? 00:14:00But, you know, they didn't ever question it. They just--they kind of accepted it. And my dad--and again, I didn't realize this until many years later, he never failed to uh, take me to ----------(??) to rehearsal. You know, I'd say, "Well, I have to be at the school at this time." He would take me. He was there to pick me up when it was over. You know there --(coughs)-- it, it again--and so anyway, so I got involved with this, and I stayed with it all through high school. I mean, I was in every production and, and uh, it really kind of began to define me in a way I didn't quite ever expect. But they never questioned it. Well, my mom would fuss.--(laughs)-- My mom would fuss a little bit, but dad was always like--he--and, and they never failed to come and see a show. You know, they were always there. And again, at the time, I didn't appreciate what was happening. You know, it was, um--and 00:15:00it probably wasn't till after he died, and I, you know, had come out again that, um you know, I really realized what--how they had been totally accepting of something that I'm sure was completely foreign to them. And you know, um, so anyway--so I--that, that probably made--and then I got involved in a lot of other things. I, I, you know, I was involved in a lot of the clubs and um, but again, there was this core group of people that I hung out with that suddenly I wasn't, um,--and ironically, most of the boys turned out to be gay too.--(laughs)--I mean, it, it--you know, isn't that funny, how that all worked out? And so, you know, I got through that. I got through the high school. And, and that was when I began to think about, well, what am I gonna do? You know? And of course, there was always talk about going to 00:16:00college, but that wasn't really something--like my oldest brother had gone to college. My sister had gone to college. -(sniffs)-- And then--(coughs)--my next brother didn't and, and my two younger brothers didn't. And I kind of--and for whatever reason, you know, they put me in the, um, you know,--I guess due to aptitude test, that they put me in the pre--I think it was called pre-college curriculum or something like that. Uh, whereas my one of my brothers got put in a vocational--I, I always kind of wondered why? You know, it's like, Why? Anyway, um, and so that made me think about going to college. And I--and but I wasn't like, What do I do? You know, I--what--you know, kind of,--What does that mean? I didn't have anybody um, to kind of tell me what any of that meant.--(sniffs)--So I--and I think that was about the time when I was talking to my dad, and he said how much he hated his work, and I 00:17:00thought, Well, I don't ever want to do that. You know, I don't want to go all my life hating what I do. And at that point, I thought, Well, I could just, I could maybe, I could do theater.

Sisko: --right----------(??)--

Fields: --So I looked into it and sure enough, there was a theater major and I um, applied and came to UK and, and um, and that was where things really kind of started to change, I think, for me.

Sisko: Yeah well, we'll move into the UK--

Fields: --okay--

Sisko: --very soon.

Fields: --(sniffs)--

Sisko: Ah, there was one thing you mentioned though that I wanted to follow up on because I found it really interesting. So you mentioned and you know, obviously this isn't necessarily a rare story, but you mentioned that other people knew you were gay--

Fields: --um-hm--

Sisko: --before, you knew. Um, what was your sense of what gay was? I mean, obviously, at the time, you didn't know--

Fields: ---------(??)--

Sisko: --that it meant something about yourself,

Fields: ---------(??)--

Sisko: --but, you know, you're hearing people say these names.--

Fields: --um-hm--

Sisko: --you're hearing people call you things. What did you think it was all about? What did you think it was?

Fields: I had no idea. I mean, I, I really didn't. And I don't--I just know it was something that was really bad, you know. Between what was happening at school and what would happen at church, I just knew it was something that was not good. And --(coughs)--maybe--I mean, perhaps by the time I got into high school, I had some sense of it. But I don't--I mean,--(sighs)----(sighs)--You know, I think back to when, when did I first know that or when did I---------(??)--And--it's like when I was a kid, there was some point--and I don't--and I have--I'm really not sure even when that was. Maybe when I was in late elementary school? I, I kind of started to feel like there was something about me that was not like other people. And I've heard other, I've heard other men talk about that. And, and, and I think that was my experience. I, I had this childhood friend who--we were just best friends, you know um. And I think that was probably the first 00:19:00person I was in love with, but I didn't know that. I didn't know--it wasn't--there was nothing sexual about it. It was, it was just--and ironically--I mean, I don't even know if he was gay. I don't know. But there was--but if I had to guess, I would say probably because there was some kind of bond there that I just didn't understand. But of course, at the time I didn't care because it was just somebody--he was, he was just my best friend. And we did everything together. So I, I'm thinking that was maybe the first moment I began to realize something wasn't right about me. And then as time went on, you know, again, probably I first was introduced to the idea of, you know, homosexuality in church and, you know, that that, you know, was not a good thing and, and as I got older, you know,-- I, I 00:20:00am trying to think of the first time somebody ever called me a name. Hmm. I guess it was--well, it was probably junior high. Or middle--we'll say middle school. It was junior high in those days. --(both laugh)-- I, I just remember and that, that period leading up to going to high school. Of course, I moved to a different school when I went from that to that. I remember the end of that year of being in the eighth grade. It was really--there--(sighs)--there was a confrontation and I---------(??) you know, I was being bullied. I was bullied a lot and--but again, I didn't really understand why. I just knew that for some reason I wasn't up to snuff or par, you know, normal or whatever, whatever that was.--(sniffs)-- And I remember the end of that school year. You know--I don't think it was ever physically attacked, but I 00:21:00was--but it was, you know, it was a verbal bullying to the point that I was just--I mean, I just was reduced to tears, you know. And I, I mean, I walked home and it was a long walk in those days. And, you know, we walked in those days. Uh, and I cried all the way. And I--you know, because I couldn't--I just didn't understand. Right. And I'm pretty sure a lot of that bullying came about because, you know.--You know, I think back to--uh, when I came back out in the last seven or eight years, um, I sat down and I watched Queer as Folk, which is the, the-- aired on Showtime, which, you know, when it aired originally, I would have never watched it. Uh. But I found out that the library here had, had all five seasons and I was like--and I start--and I kind of binge watched, you know. And in the last season, there's the one character, Emmett, who is somewhat flamboyant. Uh. And he has 00:22:00this--he falls into this relationship with this professional football player, which is kind of a, you know, bizarre storyline, but what the heck?--(Sisko laughs)--And at one point, they were having this conversation after, you know, they were meeting up in hotel rooms because he was--the football player, was closeted and couldn't you know--. And they were having a conversation about being--um--about him coming out and how that much that would mean. And--and he said, "I can't ever do that", you know. Um--and he said, "because nobody's ever known I was gay." And Emmett's response to that was, "Well, everybody always knew I was gay." And I realized at that moment that--that was what I was experiencing. Everybody always knew. Except me. --(laughs)-- And so, I mean, even to the point when I finally came out to my family just a few years ago one, one of my brothers looked at me and he said, "Well, so tell me something I didn't know." And so, you know, of course, I was at that point--I was in therapy and I was like, why didn't 00:23:00you say something?--(laughs)--But of course, you know, that's--um--so I, I think that's what it was for me. It was just-it, it was, you know, it was a gradual--you know, self awareness, but unfortunately, the self awareness was not something that I was able to cope with.

Sisko: You mentioned um, that you heard about homosexuality at church,--

Fields:--Um-hm--

Sisko: -- that they were being discussed there, and you mentioned growing up in a Southern Baptist--

Fields:--Um-hm--

Sisko: --family. So I want to ask, uh, growing up, what was the role of religion in you know, your childhood? And, you know, at what moments did sexuality--

Fields:--Um-hm--

Sisko: --end up being something that was mentioned? Because you mentioned, you know,--

Fields:--Um-hm--

Sisko: --at church that there was some discussion going on there.

Fields: Well, I think it usually--I would hear it in the sermons. You know, it will come out in the sermons, not, not as conversation, but I, I was just hearing--and--I--yeah--for me, growing up, church was a really important place. It was so--there was this sense of community that was very appealing 00:24:00to me. I, I think--and, and it was very central to the-- my family. I mean, I think--oh well, I don't know if we were typical but, you know, my mother went to church. My dad kind of didn't always go. It--when, you know, when he was working, uh, you know, mother kind of did that. But she took all of us and we went and --(sniffs)-- and, you know, we were very--I mean, we were very involved. I mean, you know, we would go Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night. You know, anytime there was any kind of potluck, you know, we were there. And so it was this community that I was very attracted to. But yet then at some point I began to realize that I wasn't--I must have--it must have been in high school. I can't even think. But at some point, I began to realize--and maybe when I was young I, I was hearing that and something about it resonated. And it wasn't--I wasn't--it's so odd. It's so 00:25:00hard to kind of even articulate some of that, but at some point I began to realize that I was not right. And, and eventually I think I knew that I was, you know,--as I would--you know, I began to have sexual feelings and, you know, and I realized, well, this isn't--I'm not doing--something's--I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing.--(sniffs)-- And I think somehow I began to fear that you know, well, first of all, God's not going to love me. Or, you know, I'm going to hell or whatever, whatever the verbiage was. But somehow in my head, God was not going to love me. And then, somehow I attached to that, that then my family's not gonna love me either. And that created a huge conflict in me. Uh, because today I look at 00:26:00my friends and I go, Why were you able to make that leap when you were eighteen or nineteen? You know and, Why were you able to do it? And then yet I never could, to where I could come out and be, who I was--who, who I was. So---------(??) so I'm really torn about the church. I mean, on the one hand, I, I, you know, I really loved the community.--(sniffs)-- On the other hand, it was telling me I was a horrible person and, you know. Uh,--and then--and that got reinforced from, you know, society around me because people were, you know, calling me names. And, you know, when I saw other people that were perceived as gay, and I saw how they were treated, and you just, 00:27:00you know, you learn really quickly that it's not---------(??) you don't want to be that. Um, and so I think it, it--that--and you know, to this day, even though I've kind of resolved it all, I can't--I still can't go back to church. And I miss it. I, I've missed it. Um, you know, and I've tried. I've, you know, I've tried even, you know, more um, accepting congregations, but it's still--every time I go into that, it just takes me back to that, you know to what I lost. Um. So I've kind of resolved my spiritual life on my own terms, and I'm much happier. I mean, I still miss, I still miss the community. And when I meet people who are involved in churches, in some ways I go--but I think maybe I've found a way that's, that works for me. And I, I'm, you know, and I'm happy with that. And I'm uh, I feel good about it. Because I think it 00:28:00took--I think my perception was always there's somebody there who talks to God and kind of tells me what he says.--(laughs)--Now, I don't need that person there. You know, I can do it on my own and I don't--and that's much better for me. And ---------(??) within any religion, it always feels like there's always somebody there telling me what God's got to say, and I don't--that's--

Sisko: You don't feel you need that--

Fields: --I don't need that.--.

Sisko: --yeah--

Fields: --I, I've got my own open line of communication now, and I'm--and I think it works.

Sisko: You're happy with it.

Fields: I'm happy with it.

Sisko: You mentioned um, there's this emphasis on community going on because you miss the community--

Fields: --Um-hm-- --(sips water)--

Sisko: --feeling that you had going to church--

Fields: --Um-hm--

Sisko: --and then you also mentioned when you discovered theater,--

Fields: --Um-hm--

Sisko: --when your English teacher got you--

Fields: --Um-hm--

Sisko: --into that and you found this community of people who they were all different--

Fields: --Um-hm--

Sisko: --and it was okay for you to be different. Uh, and you mentioned that moving into college, you decided, you know, theater--I'm going to do something that makes me happy. Um. How did the costuming aspect come to play? Because I remember you mentioned--when you first started theater in high school, you mentioned you were doing acting.--

Fields: --Um-hm--

Sisko: --How did that transition happen?--

Fields: --(sniffs)--

Sisko: And what about the costuming work appealed to you?

Fields: Well, --(coughs)--so in high school at that time, I, I don't know that, that's necessarily --(Sisko coughs)-- the case now, about all you could really do is act. I mean, we all kind of got together and built the sets. And the costumes, kind of, you know, for the musicals they got rented. And then for the straight plays, they you know,--we kind of culled it all together as a group. So there wasn't, you know, people that were particularly involved in, you know, doing those aspects.--(coughs)--And--(sniffs)--for some reason

in my senior year of high school, --(laughs)--and--I--to this day, I don't understand why, I got this bug in my head that I wanted to learn how to sew. And we were having uh, at that time that uh, this teacher had uh, created a charter of the Thespian Society, which, you know, I was a senior--And so for the initial uh, initiation or, you know, the like ceremony where, you know,--um we were going to have a costume party. She wanted to have a costume party. And so I, of course, I was like, I didn't have a costume. But about that time, I, I decided I wanted to learn to sew. And so I--at some point, I think I said something to my mother about that. And my mother--just my memory is she just went ballistic and was like, That,--Boys don't do that. Just no. I'm--you know. And so I thought, well, all right. I mean, she sewed. I mean, she's she was a wonderful seamstress. She could--she 00:31:00made our clothes. She made you know, she made her clothes, when we were much younger. And so I thought, well, there's a pattern. It's got instructions. How hard can it be? So I went off to--I think um, I think there must have been a fabric store in Georgetown. I don't know. Anyway, I went to the fabric store and I found a pattern and I must've--in 1973--I must've been an odd--must have been odd for me to be in that store. But there was one--there was a lady working in there, And she--she did venture to ask me what I was doing. I said, "Well, now have to have this costume for this costume party, and, and I'm--and I don't really know how to do it, but--" And I was looking at the patterns, and they had instructions and, and so she was nice enough. She kind of showed me how to read the envelope and figure out how much fabric and, and so I did. And I took it home and I started cutting it out.--(laughs)--And, and I started doing this. And, you know, I got her sewing machine out. And I remember her fussing about it,--(laughs)-- you 00:32:00know, in the kitchen. And, and I kept plugging away at what I was doing, and um, I got to this one part and I just couldn't figure it out. And my memory is she finally came and said, "Oh, give me that. I'll show you how to do it." And she did. Uh, and after that, she was--seemed fine. I mean I, you know, I kept practicing. Well, anyway, so then I went off to the university to uh,--(sniffs)--study theater. And of course, I was gonna be an actor because that's kind of all I knew I could be.--(sniffs)--Meanwhile, I'm at home practice, you know, making things. And--(coughs)--and so I got in. I got in, and it was the midseventies and um, I met--again it was--going in there was like, Oh wow. These are really some people--(laughs)--like me. --(laughs)--And so um, at some point, somebody, I think she was a graduate--she was a graduate student--and she kept saying, "You should go down to the costume 00:33:00shop." You should go to a costume shop. I was like, Okay. So I did. And there was this woman down there, the woman who was the costumer. --(coughs)-- And she was one of the most memorable people--I, I can easily say she is one of the most memorable people I ever met, uh even to this day. And--(sighs)--I just kind of walked in and said, "So can I help?" And she had--she--you know, she had a cigaret hanging out of her mouth, and she was just--she had this terrible temper.--(sniffs)--And a lot of people were afraid of her, but I, I just kind of--I went in--and so, the first thing she had me do was polish shoes. I was in a play at that point and they were working on it. And so she said, "Well, can you polish shoes?"--(laughs)--And I think about all those nights that I had to polish my shoes before we went to church the next morning. You know, we would sit up and polish our shoes. And I said, "Well, yeah, I can do that." And so I--(laughs)--I sat. I polished. I don't know. I must have sat in there, polished eighteen pairs of shoes. And, I--you know, and I was--every time I 00:34:00got one down I'd go, "Is this okay?" ---------(??)Yeah, that's fine. You know,--Just keep--and so I did. And, and then, I kind of liked being in there. It was, it was uh,--again, it was an environment that--and I was watching these people sewing and I was, you know--knowing I was like, Man, I would like get my chance to do that. And so I got done that day and I said, "So can I come back?" And she said, "Well, yeah."--(laughs)-- Um, and so I did. And so then she said, "Well, do you know how to sew?" And I said, "Well, I've been trying." And so she gave me a project and I--and anyway, it just--I just kind of--I always say I kind of went in there and I just never left. And--because at--by that point, I was figuring out I didn't really like being on stage that much. It was--there was something about it that was--I--it--I felt too vulnerable. I, I don't know. I just--but then it was like--but I had this passion 00:35:00to do this thing. And suddenly I found, well, I can just redirect the passion and do it down here, and I still get to do the thing, which was theater. Um, and it, it really--and, and the thing was this, this crazy woman--she was incredibly passionate about what she was doing. And I, I guess I never really, I guess I've never seen anybody that, passionate. And it, it some--it just triggered something in me, I think. So I just kind of--I--that's what I did. I, you know,--much to my detriment because I kind of just did that and I didn't go to class. And I, eventually I kind of, you know, --(laughs)--had to leave because I was, I was doing so poorly in school. But I think my--(sighs)----but part of it was I you know, I didn't--I wasn't prepared for the bigness of UK. I wasn't--it was, it was 00:36:00this--in some ways it was kind of a scary place because it was like this big place. And, and I felt safe in that building, you know, and in that room in particular. And eventually,-- you know, of course, in those days, you know, the university,--(laughs)--today, you know, --(laughs)--there would've been an adviser on me --(laughs)--saying,-- um,which I think is a good thing. But, it but, you know, there was also no resources for people like me. There wasn't any, there wasn't--I mean, there were people like me, but there was nobody you could go to to say, I'm having trouble with this or I'm, you know, I don't--it wasn't. You know, when I met and I began to meet----(laughs)--it's kind of interesting. I um, I'm kind of getting ahead of things with the--

Sisko: --Actually, I was just about to ask you about--(Fields laughs)--your general UK undergrad experience--

Fields: --(sniffs)--

Sisko: --and your awareness of other gay people,--

Fields: ---------(??)

Sisko: --if there is awareness of it or not. So you are headed--

Fields: --(coughs)--Okay--

Sisko: -- in exactly (--Fields laughs)--a great direction. --(both laugh)--

Fields: Well, I--so, yes, I mean--I was very, I was still very closeted. I, you know, I was not. And I--(sighs)--and I--but yet there were people around and they weren't hiding it. And I was kind of fascinated by that. But yet I was still,you know,--because I think I was engaged at that point. There was some--here was a girl from high school. I was engaged and I kept talking about that, and I think people were like, Really?--(laughs)--But, you know, nobody ever said--this is I think what's interesting about that experience. None of those people ever made fun of me. I mean, maybe they did behind my back, but I don't think so. You know, they always kind of accepted what I said. They didn't, they didn't question that. And in fact, I--so it was like two years--I'd been there two years before I even. And I, I think in my sophomore year, a new student came , who I liked--(sniffs)--and he, um, he was,---------(??) he was so cute. And, um, he had a partner who was 00:38:00much older. And um, Sam was not--he wasn't in school, but he was, but he was a drag queen in Louisville. --(sniffs)--And I think Sam, he, he looked at me and he went,---------(??) This child's a mess.--(laughs)--but again, he never, he never accused. And Sam was about as flamboyant as they came. I mean, he was just, you know. I mean, he was not hiding anything. And so he began to introduce me to the idea. Well, he was, he was running a pageant in Louisville--(sniffs)--and he had friends there. And because I was involved in costume, he--one day he said, "Would you be interested in coming and being a judge?" And I was like, Well, I uh, you know, I was kind of like.--He 00:39:00said, "Look. It'll be fine." He said, "Look, I'll be there. Dale will be there and nobody's gonna bother you. We will make sure you're"--I mean he, you know, he said, he said We're going to create a safe place, without saying that. So he convinced me to go. And I said, "Okay." And it was like a two-day affair. And we were gonna go up. We were going to stay with their friends in Louisville. And um, I went, and I did it.---------(??) That was the first time I ever was in a gay bar.

Sisko: So how old are you?---------(??)

Fields: Uh, I would have been well, I was probably under age.--(both laugh)

Sisko: I assumed.--(laughs)--

Fields: So I could--I mean, I probably was nineteen. Because yeah, I started school--I was seventeen because--I wasn't. You know I was a November baby. So I kind of was a little early? And, um, and you know, I met his friends. We stayed at their, their apartment and they were, you know,--Larry, he was the funniest person I ever met in my life. Um, and they owned the bar, which is probably why I got in. Right? I mean, I wasn't--at that point, I 00:40:00wasn't drinking. So it wasn't like, you know.--(sniffs)--And so I um,--you know, and I met all these really neat people. And you know, I saw my first drag show and that was kind of fascinating to me. I was like--(laughs)--. Um, and so it just,--you know, it was like--and I think Sam knew what he was doing. He knew that he just maybe had to get me into the environment so that I could see that, you know, there's a bunch of people here just like you and it's okay. Um,--(coughs)--so anyway--(Sisko coughs)--and then I started going to Louisville on a fairly regular basis. And eventually, it was just--I remember it was probably into my second year UK, and I was sitting in the shop cause by then I was working there full time almost,--(laughs)--and Mary had just become a mentor and--. And--(laughs)--and I remember sitting at the table and we were working on something, and all the sudden she looked up and said, "So are you gay or what?" --(laughs)--

Sisko: Oh my god.--

Fields: --Beause by then, you know, word had started to get around that I was going up to Louisville and, and, and I kind of looked at her. I was startled and I said, "Well, I guess."--(laughs)--And that was probably the first time that I--that was, you know, that was the first time I came out. I mean, to somebody that I, you know. And, and then,--and I was hesitant because I wasn't sure what her reaction was--she was gonna be and, you know, and she was like, Well, I just wanted to know. And she just went on with, you know.--(laughs)-- And so from that point on, I--then, you know, things really changed kind of at rocket speed. But part of the problem was then, suddenly I was free to be who I, who I was. Well, then I was going out and I was going to Louisville. And so, school became totally secondary. I mean, theater wasn't. I mean, I was 00:42:00still doing that. But go to other classes and be, you know,--it was just not, it was just not going to happen. And--(sniffs)--then I started going down to the--(coughs)--the bar in Lexington more and, and so I had to go off and--you know it was, it was my um, it was my second adolescence. Right? Because I never had that adolescence. When I went through adolescence and there's a whole theory about that, I've read about, you know, that and-- --(laughs)--

Sisko: --I relate to it. --(both laugh)--

Fields: --And so I you know, and, and it's unfortunate when I first--when I started teaching at UK, I would see this again and again. You know, when I was,--you know, twenty years ago, I'd see students come in and, you know, they--you'd know. And then they would figure it out and then they would disappear. And it was so unfortunate. I mean, they would come back, but by then it's like, Well, you know, everything's screwed up here. --(sniffs)-- So and that was certainly the case with me. And eventually, I 00:43:00realized I didn't really want to be in school. I wanted to be doing it professionally. And so I--had the--I was maybe halfway through my fourth year, which I probably didn't have enough credits to be a junior at that point. Um, I kind of said, I don't want to do this here anymore. I want to go out and do it. And so I quit. And that was when I kind of took off and went to see what I could do on my own. --(sniffs)--

Sisko: Before we get to the post-college--

Fields: --Um-hm--

Sisko: --professional years,--(Fields coughs)--I want to loop back to something you slipped in real quick.

Fields: --(sips water)--

Sisko: Um, you mentioned you were engaged. I want to know more about the dating history--

Fields: ----------??

Sisko: --during this period of like the late teens, twenties, like during your second adolescence.

Fields: --(coughs)--Well, in high school, I mean, I dated. I mean, I went out. Well, the problem was, I didn't have a car, so I couldn't really date.--(sniffs)--I mean, probably--there would be school dances and I 00:44:00would always take a girl.--(sniffs)--I mean, I remember going to a school dance when I was maybe in the eighth grade. And I remember taking a girl to that, obviously I didn't take a boy. --(coughs)--Because it was kind of like what I was supposed to do. Right? Um, and high school I didn't--it wasn't dating in the traditional sense. I mean, I think maybe--I had these boys I hung out--I mean, my best friends were guys, but they were both gay. And of course, at that point,--(sniffs)--I mean, I did start having some sexual experiences with another boy in high school, but it was late and then on into college, really. But it wasn't, um--you know, it was kind of fumbling and nobody knew what was going on. Only, you know, I went out with a girl to the prom. I mean, that's what I remember. But that girl, I somehow got 00:45:00engaged to. I mean, I--(sighs)--because I again, I didn't have a car and, and we lived out in the country, so I couldn't--it just,--(sighs)--was just an awkward thing and maybe on some level I just figured, Oh, good. That's --(laughs)--fine. Um,--(sniffs)--but I did. I mean, we were engaged. I mean, I didn't. I mean, we just said we were engaged. I didn't give her a ring or anything. It wasn't. Do you know what I mean? --(snffs)--And I remember, I remember my mom didn't like her very much, it seemed like.--(Sisko laughs)-- Maybe, maybe I'm not remembering that. ----------?? That's just my memory. Um,--(coughs)--maybe they thought I was too young. I don't know. Uh, but then that went away with, you know--because I didn't really, I mean, I didn't really date in college either. I mean, I didn't, um. I mean, I went to parties, but I was just--I think I didn't really understand what dating was. I don't. I think-- and it's not 00:46:00like we had those conversations in my family. I didn't. --(sighs)--I've just never. --(sighs)--It was just a foreign concept. I guess. I mean, I saw that other people were doing it, but it seemed that you had to have a car. And a lot of times there was--well, there was the implication of sex involved and I was like, Well, that doesn't seem quite right. --(laughs)-- I mean, do you know what I'm saying? It's just kind of a--

Sisko: Yes.

Fields: --it's, it's, it's an odd-- I mean, looking back on it, it was an odd concept to me. Um. And I didn't know what I was doing. I mean, I maybe I was socially awkward. I, you know, I don't know. Um, so, and then again, as I got into college,--I, I don't. I mean, this one, this one boy that I saw kind of in high school that I did get--we did--um, --(sighs)--we were involved. And I think there was uh an emotional 00:47:00connection. And that continued on into college, but then he got married. And you know, and then I, I never--I don't really remember. There was one, there was one boy in Lexington while I was in college that I had-- had a lot of cases of unrequited love. I--it always seemed like I would meet, and I would be like,--I was just in love. And then they would not want anything to do with me. And I--so, again, I, I--and I kind of think now, looking back on that, that was a safe way for me to--you know because, because I was still very closeted to my family,--I didn't, you know, I mean,--I was in Lexington running around like a wild person up to Louisville. They didn't, to my knowledge, they didn't know anything about any of that. --(sniffs)--And so--and then at that time, I also discovered, you know, drugs. And not so much 00:48:00alcohol, but I started self-medicating at that point because I, you know, there was just so much happening and I couldn't. I think. And so once that started happening, then I, I mean, I pretty much stayed self-medicated for the next fifteen years. I didn't, you know, I--it just--because it, it was--I guess it was the only way to cope. You know with, like, you know, wanting to be out, and then yet there was--I still had this family. I couldn't tell. And eventually I ran away.

Sisko: It seems like that self-medicating phase is really tied into your coming out journey.

Fields: Um-hm

Sisko: And,--

Fields: --Oh yeah.

Sisko: --you know, obviously it is something I understand in terms of experience, but also something I've read about--

Fields: --Um-hm--

Sisko: -- how coming out is this multi-step process--

Fields: --Um-hm--

Sisko: --where you're constantly having to come --(Fields sniffs)-- out--

Fields: --right--

Sisko: --again and again. It's not--

Fields: --right--

Sisko: --a one and done--

Fields: --right--

Sisko: --deal--

Fields: Well, and I also think--

Sisko: --exactly.

Fields: Let's remember, it was the midseventies.--(laughs)-- So 00:49:00there was kind of this perfect storm.

Sisko: Oh, absolutely.--

Fields: --Right? And, you know.

Sisko: Absolutely. --(Fields sniffs)--And I wanted to ask let's, let's go into that perfect storm--

Fields: --okay--(laughs)--

Sisko: When it comes to the on and off coming out,

Fields: ----------??

Sisko: --because you mentioned um, you--that one woman had asked you, Oh, so are you gay or what?--

Fields: --Uh-hm----(nods affirmatively)--

Sisko: --And you said, "I guess."--

Fields: --And this was my mentor, my teacher.--

Sisko: --Exactly.--

Fields: --Right--(sniffs)--

Sisko: But then you have this division between that and your family.--

Fields: --Uh hm--

Sisko: --(Fields nods negatively)--They don't know what you're doing in Louisville.

Fields: --Uhn-uh--

Sisko: --They don't know what you're doing in Lexington.--

Fields: --right--

Sisko: --Um, and then it becomes, you know, this really stressful burden--

Fields: --Uh hm----(nods affirmatively)--

Sisko: --and you start self-medicating.

Fields: --right--

Sisko: --So how--tell me more about that era in your life in terms --(Fields coughs)-- of outness, not outness.

Fields: Well, I think in Lexington, I mean,--

Sisko: --you know--

Fields: --everybody around me,--all the students around me--I was out. I mean, they--I, I don't. There wasn't anybody. I mean, because I was--you know, I was going to the bars here. I was going to, you know, I was--I mean, I was going to parties. You know. I mean, I-- But yet my family was 00:50:00just twenty five miles up the road--twenty five minutes up the road. And, and I--the first two years I lived at home and I was commuting. And then I-- as soon as this all started changing, I found an apartment and moved out. And um, and that, of course, made it easier. I mean, it was right about that time. It's like, well, you know, so. But it was in--you know, my mom,--my dad and my mom would come up. I mean, they came to every show I was involved in. I--they continued to be supportive. Right. Every time I had a show,--I forget--I got to, I got to design the costumes for this one play at--when I was--when I was at UK. Uh, it was kind of a smaller, not a--it was part of the main stage, but it is smaller.--(sniffs)-- And it was this uh, bizarre production of Alice in Wonderland. And I, and I, and that was a great experience for me because the, the woman--the student that was the director, and then there was another uh, student who was the same designer, she, you know, who's 00:51:00ultimately, you know, a lesbian. But--(both laugh)--but she and I--I just--it was like--I--that was one of the most wonderful experiences. And so I told my mom and dad about it, that I did, you know, my costumes, and I think I might have been the first play that I'd--you know that it was like my first big design. And my dad always--(laughs)--it was like, you know, it was like--I think it was a midnight show. You know, they were performing it at midnight and like late in the evening in some instances. And like you came in and it was the midseventies, you know. You had to sit on the floor. And, and my mom and dad came and--(laughs)--my dad would always tell the story. He said, "Yeah. I went in there and we had to sit on the floor. The pot smoke was so thick, I had to ----------??"--(laughs)-- I'm sure it wasn't. I'm sure it was cigarette smoke. But--and he would always tell that story. And he loved telling it. And, you know, but he came. They both came. And they you know, 00:52:00again, it's--I look back and I realized--I didn't appreciate it at the time, how much they supported me doing this weird thing. I mean, it must have been. It must have been just bizarre to them.---

Sisko: --Right. Completely outside--

Fields: --It's like what is our son--

Sisko: --of their experience--

Files: --doing? What is he doing?--

Sisko: --yeah--

Fields: --You know.--

Sisko: --yeah--

Fields: --Um, so anyway.--

Sisko: --Absolutely.

Fields: So I--um,--(sniffs)--so it--(sighs)--yeah, it was a struggle through that. And I think the --(sighs)--it--(sighs)--but somehow I managed. I mean, I was, I was enjoying myself. I was --(pauses)--or the first time in my life, but at the same time, there was always this problem. You know, and I couldn't--and again, that's the period when I say, Why wasn't I able to make that leap? And yet all of, you know, the people I know who are my age now, they all talk about, Well, when I was--I came out when I was 00:53:00nineteen. I came out was eighteen. You know, I told my family when I was twenty. And it's like, Why, why could they do that and I couldn't? And I, again, I, I just--somehow I got love all screwed up in my head, I think, that nobody's gonna love me because of who I am.

Sisko: That's an immense, understandable pressure.

Fields: Right.--(sniffs)--

Sisko: --It seems like--are you frustrated with yourself that you didn't come out --(Fields coughs)--sooner?

Fields: Well, I think for a, I think you know, I think I was--I mean, it's so weird. I came out, but I didn't come out. Right? And then I went back in when I got married. And and then, --(laughs)--you know, and then some--you know, now I've come back out again. And yes, when I, you know when I--and I've been--I've done a lot of therapy, you know, since then. Which I kind of always knew, that was what I needed when I was young. But of 00:54:00course, I couldn't afford it. And of course, you didn't do that, you know, not in my family. No we, we don't do that. And I um,--(coughs)--I, I,--yes, I was frustrated that I didn't, but I think I've gotten past that. You know, I've kind of said, Well, you just have to forgive yourself and let that one go because, you know, you can't go back and redo it. It's--there's no redos. So I mean it--yeah, it's,it's just one of the things I just had to say. Okay. Just--you're done with that. Don't--

Sisko: Yeah. Yeah.

Field: Right? It, it--there's no point and--yes, I did beat up on myself for a little while in therapy and, you know, and outside of. But now it's kind of like, Just move on. There--it's, it's too late and it's not worth it.

Sisko: And you're out--

Fields:--and I'm out and I'm and--

Sisko: --now.

Fields: --now--and it's, you know, it's it's my life's much better. You know.--(sniffs)--

Sisko: Um, before we move to the post-college marriage--

Fields: --Um-hm--

Sisko: --phase, --(Fields coughs)--I want to ask really quickly, --(Fields sniffs)--because you mentioned that you were always going to all the gay bars--

Fields: --(laughs)--yeah--

Sisko: --in Lexington during the seventies. --(Fields sniffs)--Do you remember the names of the bars--

Fields: --(laughs)--well--(laughs)--

Sisko: --that you went to?--

Fields: --well--(laughs)--

Sisko: --Because I want to know, like--yeah. Which establishments--

Fields: --well--

Sisko: --are we talking here?

Fields: Well, there was only one really.--(both laugh)--

Sisko: Only one official one?--

Fields: --Well--

Sisko: --or?--

Fields: So it was a late seventies and I mean,--

Sisko: --okay--

Fields: --you know, we were all like, you know, drooling to go to Studio 54 in New York and The Bar --what is now The Bar Complex. And I'm trying to remember it was--when I first came out, it was Montparnasse. It was The Living Room at some point, but I never went when it was that. It, it,--sighs--at some point in there it shut down and they did a huge remodel. I mean, they--I mean, it was--I mean, it got built--we all knew that it was like something special. And I mean, that my memory is. Yes. It was all model on Studio 54 and--(sniffs)--. And so I remember going right after it reopened and 00:56:00I--maybe that was the first time it was called Johnny Angel. They called it Johnny Angel was the name of the bar. Um in fact, there's still a sign on the back that's never lit. --(laughs)--I look up and I see the sign.--

Sisko: --Really?--

Fields: --Yeah.--

Sisko: --There is? I've never seen the sign.--

Fields: --Yeah.--

Sisko: --I'll have to--

Fields: --But--

Sisko: --look.--

Fields: --you never see it--

Sisko: --Yeah.--

Fields: --because it's neon. It's spelled out Johnny Angel.

Sisko: Ah, okay.--(Fields sniffs) I'll have to look for that sometime.

Fields: And, that was how you knew where it was--

Sisko: --Uh-hm--

Fields: --in the back and um, and so I just remember the first time I went in there. It was like the most amazing experience. And I mean, it was the dance floor on the third--second floor--third floor, whatever it was--I mean, it was home. I mean, it was just--I mean, I would just go there and every night that I could go and we, my friends and I--there'd be like six or seven of us that--we would just go and dance all night and. And, you know, smoke.--(laughs)--Um, so it was--and that was where I was going. Then the other times, I would go to Louisville. There were bars in Louisville. Mostly, mostly--I don't remember there being much drag at that time 00:57:00there, but maybe there was, and I just wasn't--because I would go to the drag shows in Louisville. --(sniffs)--

Sisko: What was the name of the bars in Louisville--

Fields: --You know,--

Sisko: --if you remember any?

Fields: -- that was one I can't remember.--(Sisko laughs)--I cannot remember that bar. I can't remember the bar I used to go to. It was owned by these two guys. I mean, I-yeah,--they, they own--their names were Larry and Jerry. And Larry, he was, he was a drag queen in the show. And then Sam performed.--(sniffs)--And Sam uh, Larry, he was the--they owned the bar, then Larry ran the show. And he would do these--(coughs)--he would do like mini productions of Broadway musicals. So like he always wanted to do, Hello, Dolly! and so he got me to help him build costumes for that, you know. And so that was my first experience of, you know, --(laughs)--building drag clothes. And, and like, he just basically strung all the musical numbers together----------?? And, you know, of course, he had to play Dolly. Um, and he would bead--he was--he would bead dresses. He was-- he would bead by hand.--(sniffs)--And 00:58:00um,and he was the funniest man. I, I just--he--I--he was like really--again, he kind of became a role model in a way. Uh, I mean, not that I aspired to do drag, but he just, he was so funny and so free and just so, seemed so completely happy with himself that, you know. And Sam was the same way. I mean, there--it--there was you know, there was a lot of people like that, that. Um so I, those--but again, I was escaping, my life in some ways, even in Lexington, I think--(sniffs)-- Which I think ultimately led me to run away um, because it all started getting too close eventually. Um, and so, and gradually school was becoming less and less important. I mean, what I was doing in the costume shop was important, and the theater was important. But school itself was 00:59:00just totally--because again, going outside that building was hard for me. I just didn't, you know I was--I would, I would continually be confronted by the-- basically high school, you know, people that--because by then I was starting to be you know, I was dressing differently and I was making my own clothes and I was designing them. And they didn't quite look like --(both laugh)--anything else anybody was wearing. And, you know, I was I mean, I was kind of--(sniffs)--and I mean, I must have been wearing them home. So my family must have been seeing that transformation. But somehow in my head, maybe I didn't get that. I don't know. I--it's, it's--I, I look back on it and I think it's a really odd--

Sisko: --It's striking, yeah.--

Fields: --You know,--

Sisko: --Yeah.

Fields: --it's something that was something so strange. It was almost surreal in some ways. And of course, the fact that I was stoned all the time didn't probably help much. ----------??--(sniffs)--

Sisko: You mentioned having--(Fields sniffs)--sort of like a redo of 01:00:00high school --(Fields sniffs)--on--during college in the sense that people like, I know saying things to you?

Fields: Well, it was just,--

Sisko: --or looking funny?

Fields: --when I would go out into the campus--

Sisko: --Okay.--

Fields: --at large. I mean,

Sisko: --Yeah. Outside the build.--

Fields: Yes.

Sisko: --Yeah

Fields: Then--and again, that's part of why I retreated back in.--

Sisko: --Um-hm--

Field: --You know, because I was--it was a safe--I was safe there.

Sisko: Yeah.

Fields: Right? It was not--I didn't have to worry about somebody calling me a name or--and, and those people in the building, they actually liked me. Right? They liked the real me, not, not the person I might pretend to be. They--does makes sense?

Sisko: Yes. Yes.--

Fields: It's just--

Sisko: --Absolutely.--

Fields: --you know, for the first time in my life, I, I could just be who I was and it didn't matter.

Sisko: Is that building still around?--

Fields: --Oh, yeah.--

Sisko: --Which building was it?--

Fields: --I work in it.--(both laugh)--

Sisko: How about that?

Fields: I work in it.

Sisko: --(laughs)--You just liked that--

Fields: And it's strange,--

Sisko: --building.

Fields: --and I have to say, it's strange--

Sisko: --Yeah.--

Fields: --walking around in that building sometimes, because I think 01:01:00I've been in and out of that building for almost fifty years. And it's kind of,-- it's, it's still surreal. --(laughs)--You know.--(sniffs)--

Sisko: Oh, I bet. Uh, you mentioned that--eventually, you know, for all these various reasons we've discussed, college got to be too much. And you ran away.

Fields: Yeah.

Sisko: Where --(Fields sniffs)--did you run to? --(Fields laughs)--Where did you go?

Fields: Texas. --(both laugh)--

Sisko: What happened in Texas? Let's, let's go--

Fields: --(coughs)--Well,--(coughs)--

Sisko: --to Texas. What happened in Texas--

Fields: --Well,--

Sisko: --and from there?

Fields: --I um, I got my first job in theater in summer stock in Missouri,--(sniffs)--working for this woman in the building at UK. She hired me because she worked at a summer theater there and she offered me a job and said, "Would you like to come to mid-missouri?" And--(sniffs)--you know, it's a rep company. And so I went there. And that would have been, uh, that was maybe the summer before I quit school. Let's see, I quit school in seventy--December of [Nineteen] seventy-seven. So I was there in the summer of 01:02:00[Nineteen] seventy-seven.--(sniffs)--It was a rep company. They did six plays. You know, we lived in a dormitory. You know, I mean, I got paid a pittance, but my God, that was the most amazing summer. You know, one I got out of Kentucky, which, you know, by then I was really kind of chomping at the bit to leave and go someplace else. And--not that mid-missouri was that much different. But I--you know, it was like there were all these actors that came from New York. Uh, there were just all these people from all--every--all of--you know. The guy I was rooming with in the dorm was from uh, Ithaca,--(sniffs)--New York. There was actress from New York City.--(sniffs)--You know, the directors, the other you know,--it was, it was like--and I mean, I could do this all day long, all, all the time. There was you know,--I didn't you know--there were some friends from UK, couple, a couple of people that I'd worked with at the UK that got hired.--(sniffs)--And um, I--it, it was just, it was a mind-blowing experience. I mean, I got to work in the costume shop all day. I 01:03:00didn't have to worry about classes. I--you know, I got to run the shows at night. Um, the people--those those actors were amazing. And again--(pauses)--I wasn't weird. I was, you know,--everybody just liked me for me. You know. By that point, I was sewing like crazy. That was, you know, the height of, you know,--I had, --(laughs)--I had made a um, a three-piece white suit like John Travolta had in Saturday Night Fever. And, you know, there was one woman in the cast who I knew from UK. She had graduated. But she--you know, we went out dancing and, and it was just you know,--it was just an amazing summer of doing theater and meeting all these phenomenal people. So by the time I came back to Lexington that fall, you know, I think that was--then in December was when I quit. That you know,--it was like I went back to school and it was 01:04:00like, No, this is [thud] not--no, this isn't it. I need to go do that. And so in December, I said to Mary, I said, I can't. I'm not coming back. I can't do this. I've got to, you know. --(coughs)--And so then, that spring, I went to the Southeastern Theater Conference looking for a job for the summer. And I was there with my--with a friend of mine from high school, who was there. We drove. It was in Atlanta that year. We went down. --(coughs)--We were at the conference. Of course we were stoned all the time. Um, um, and I will never forget--I--we were in the conference hotel and the place was packed. I had been going to interviews. I've been going you know, looking, you know,--because the way it's set up, you can you know, you go in, you sign up for a signed time and you go in an interview, take your resumé and. And it was the end of the first day and it was late. It was like eleven, and Dennis and I were trying to find some food. And the place, I mean, it was just 01:05:00jam packed. I mean, students, people, you know, and we got on an escalator going down into a lower level. I think we were looking for food and like, it was just a solid line of people. And there was a sort of line of people on this side coming up. And I got about quarter of the way down and I caught eyes with this man on the other escalator who was a bit older. And he just locked eyes with me and I couldn't. And he was really cute. And--I, you know, it was just literally one of these--as the elevator--escalators passed, I just turned and he did, too. And he just never stopped looking. And I, and I--that's the first time that had really ever happened to me. Right. Because, again, up to that point, I had had all these, you know, people I chased after and,--(sniffs)--and that--never had any luck. And so we got downstairs and Dennis said something like, Well, what do you want to do? I don't see any place, you know, where you get food. And I said, Well, I don't know about you, but I'm gonna go find out who that guy was." And I got back on the escalator, and 01:06:00went back upstairs. And fortunately, he was still in the lobby. And I kind of walked up and he just kind of walked up and, and he was--(sighs)--again, it was another one of those moments when I just--and he was like, Who are you? And he was just like, so complimentary and he was like, you know, You're so cute. And just just, you know. And so I told him, I said, Well, you know, I'm here. I'm trying to get--I'm a student. I just got out of school and I'm trying to get a job working costumes. He says, "Well. I'm a director." --(sniffs)--And he said, "I have this big theater in Texas." And he said, "What do you do?" And he said, "Let me see what you do." And he was like--and so I had my bag and I pulled it out. He said, "I want you to meet these people I'm working with." And so he set up an appointment for me. --(sniffs)--And, and so I-(coughs)--you know, I went up there at the appropriate time the next night. And,--(coughs)--you know, and I went in and, and um, and it turned out I knew somebody there that I, you know, gone to school with. And, so I had all my portfolio stuff, I mean. And I showed them all my work 01:07:00and. And so we went out in the hall and he said, Man, you're--and he just kept go gushing and gushing and gushing about how good I was. And how talented I was. Um, and so I--ultimately he--I got hired to go to Texas, Galveston, Texas.--(sniffs)----(sighs)--And they were doing a new production of Annie Get Your Gun, and I didn't even know what I was gonna be doing, frankly. I just you know, I was--right?--(sniffs)--Uh, and so, I--we left and went back to Kentucky. And, about three weeks later, I'm home. I'm living at home now.--(laughs)--This is the weirdest story. --(both laugh)--

Sisko: I'm ready for it.

Fields: The phone rang. My parents had gone out somewhere. They were gone. They were gone for--and my brothers were all gone. Everybody was gone but me. I was home alone. --(sniffs)-- And I answered the phone and it was Jimmy. 01:08:00He said, "What are you doing?" I was like, Well, I'm just you know, I'm just hanging out.--(laughs)--And he said. "I'm going to New York. I need you to go with me." --(laughs)--I was like What? --(laughs)--He said. "I'm going to New York to look at costumes for the show this summer and I need you to, I need you to come along and look at what I'm looking at, and tell me if they're any good."--(sniffs)--I was like--it was like a Sunday. It was Sunday. It was like a Sunday afternoon. And I was like--I said, I don't. He said, "Look." He said, "Where are you at?" and I told him. He said, "Okay, hold on." He said, "I'll call you back."--(sniffs)-- He called me back like ten minutes later. He said. "So the closest airport to you is Lexington, right?" And I said, "Yes." He said, "Okay. There's a ticket for you there, now. Just go get on the plane--(laughs)--and meet me in New York. Here, here's the address you go to. I will meet.--I won't be there until like two hours later. Just, you know, just meet me." And I, and, and I was like----------?? --(laughs)-- And--

Sisko: --But you went.

Fields: --and I went. --(Sisko laughs)--I hung up the phone. I call my friend Dennis. I said, "I need a ride to the airport." And he's like, What? And I told him what happened. He was like, Are you kidding me? And I was like, No. And I mean, I was literally throw--I had no idea--(laughs)--I, I did ask him. I said, "How long are we gonna be there?" He said, "A week." --(sniffs)--And I said--and I mean, I was--I didn't even have a suitcase. I don't think. I mean, I'd never been on a plane. And you know, New York. I mean, my family was always like, you know, --(laughs)--Don't ever go to New York City. --(laughs)--That's the most horrible place on the planet.--(sniffs)--So, I mean, I had thirty dollars in my pocket. That was all the money I had. I got, I got on the plane to New York. Somehow I managed to get a taxi. I gave him the address that I was supposed to go to. The guy--he took me there. And this person--I had no idea who they were. Uh, and, --(coughs)--you know, he met me, said Yeah. Come on in. Jimmy said, you know,-- I'll take care of you till he gets here. And so I, I was so exhausted at that point I passed out. I just went. I just--I think we got stoned. I got I went 01:10:00to sleep.--(sniffs)--And then about two hours later, I heard the phone rang and, and --(laughs)--Jim and I--he was on--I heard Jimmy on the speaker phone talking to his him. He said, "Is he there?" And he said, "Yeah, he's here." He said, "Great. Put him in a cab and send him down to The Pierre Hotel. So I was like--so I got up. I got my stuff. He put me in a cab. You know, by then I was flat broke. I'd have a dime. And I told--he told the cab driver--he said "Take him to The Pierre Hotel." So I went and I didn't even know what that was. Right.--(laughs)----(sniffs)--He meets me. I--he meets me out front. I get out. He said, "Here, memorize this address,--(laughs)--this address.--(laughs)--We go in. I mean, it's the The Pierre Hotel. I'm just like--and again, I don't even know what that was. And we go in. --(sniffs)--We you know, he check--we check in. And so I spent a week in New York going to like different rental houses, looking at costumes. You know, it was just, it was so overwhelming an experience. Right? Um, and I was 01:11:00totally in love by then. You know, I was like,----------??----------

Sisko: Of course you were. --(both laugh)--

Fields: Uh, and but he was, you know,--we were having sex. So that was, you know. U, and I mean,--(sighs)--I, I went to the Metropolitan Museum for the first time. I--it, it you know, it was just (--pauses)--a mind blowing experience. I'm like--how old am I at this point? Twenty? Twenty-one? --(laughs)--You know.--(laughs)--And, and so at the end of the week--I mean, I went and visited with my friends from Arrow Rock. I had an evening, you know, I mean,--sniffs--he wanted me to go to the baths with him, but that, I was not--I couldn't do that at that point. I was, too--I was like, I don't think I can do that. Because I wasn't--it's just one of those things that was like, I didn't know what that was, really. To this day, I bet, I would bet I would have seen Bette Midler there. --(both laugh)-- --(sniffs)--

Sisko: Did you go to Studio 54--

Fields: --No.--

Sisko: --ever?

Fields: --No.--

Sisko: --Oh.--

Fields: --No. I mean, we did--he wasn't like--we didn't go out to clubs or anything.--

Sisko: --Ah--

Fields: --We, we just go out to eat--

Sisko: --Um-hm--

Fields: --and, you know, it.--(sniffs)--So, anyway, and so by the time I got back on the plane, I mean, by the time we finished uh,--and he paid me. He gave me money. You know, he said "Here, this is your salary for the week." and --(sniffs)--you know, by the time I, I mean. But it was exhausting for me emotionally because I was just on this like ridiculous roller coaster ride with him. And I just--I --(sighs)--and--so we--so anyway, by the time I got back on the plane, I was just emotionally spent. Meanwhile, I had left a note for my parents--(laughs)--saying "I've gone New York City." --(laughs)--That must have been just--there--ah--I don't know. Anyway,--(sniffs)--so I come back and then like a month later, I left and went to Texas. You know, I mean, I booked the flight and went. I flew. I flew. You know, I flew to 01:13:00Texas.--(sniffs)-- And um, I went early because I was gonna go see him. Well, that was when I found out that he really was in a relationship with somebody else. This very wealthy man, and I, you know. And so the next two, three years was a little difficult, but at the same time, he became a mentor. I mean he, I mean, he gave me opportunities. I did things that, you know, no twenty-one--twenty-two year-olds should have done in terms of--I mean, he'd--and he encouraged me. I mean, he was like, as, as a theater artist, I mean, he, he just kept. He was probably the first person I ever met who constantly was telling me how good I was. And it's--that, that meant a lot. I didn't--you know, it just--I mean it kind of pumped up my ego in some ways. But at the same time, nobody had ever really done that before, um on, 01:14:00on any level. And so I felt like, --(sniffs)-- you know, eventually, I mean, again, unrequited love. Um, and I eventually got past that and was able to work with him. --(coughs)-- And you know, that all culminated in a project in the eighties--in the mideighties, that was the biggest thing I ever did. And it was, it was this incredibly huge production. Um, I--you know, and the people I was working with were phenomenal. Again, it was just that,--it opened--that initial encounter with him, you know, really changed my life. It just made me, you know um --(pauses)-- realize that, you know, I can--I could do anything, except tell my parents I was gay. Because, you know, I spent the next nine years 01:15:00in Texas, --(sniffs)--I mean, summers. You know, then for a period, you know, in there, I ran away to Las Vegas. And I worked in Las Vegas and Reno for a couple of years. Um, --(coughs)--you know, so it, it was a--(sighs)--but, you know, that's what I was doing. I ran away because it was getting too close and I, you know, and I--and through that, I mean, there were other, there were other boys that I met and had relationships with. But, every time I would sabotage the relationship. And I didn't realize what I was doing at the time, but looking back, I, you know, as I went through therapy, I, I realized that's what I was doing. You know, I would, I would always do something that would tear it apart. And I don't even think I knew I was doing it. I, you know, of course, I was still self-medicating, you know,--(sniffs)-- through all of that, not just with pot, but with a lot of things. Um, and I, --(coughs)-- and I had some really good relationships. I mean, people that I really, you 01:16:00know to this day, I go look back and I go, you know, I really did that person wrong. ----------?? You know, I didn't treat them--I treated them badly and, and I regret that. But of course, I can't fix that. Um, and I think, you know, there was potential for long term relationships there, several. And again, I just destroyed that um, because it was better than trying to--because, you know.

Sisko: So it sounds like during this period you were going --(Fields sniffs)-- from, you know, relationship to relationship. You're running away,--

Fields: --Um-hm--

Sisko: --you know, from place --(Fields coughs)--to place--

Fields: --Uh-hm--

Sisko: --and eventually at some point --(Fields sniffs)--you get married.--(both laugh)--

Fields: --Yeah.----(sniffs)--

Sisko: --(laughs)--You knew this was going to come up.--

Fields: --(coughs)----(sniffs)--Yeah.

Sisko: So tell me about how, you know, running, you know, from--(Fields sniffs)--state to state,--(Fields--coughs)--job to job, how that eventually led to, you know, you meet this person. you get married.

Fields: -(coughs)--Well. So I went to Las Vegas and Reno. I was there from like 1980 to '82--'83, like a couple of years. --(sniffs)--And so for one year I didn't go back to the job in Texas. I was off because I'd done it for three years and I've kind of built--I worked my way up in the organization and I, you know, I was doing well. They respected me. The people liked me and--but I didn't feel like I was getting, I don't know--So I--I've always wanted to go to Las Vegas. You know, that's kind of one of those like Holy Grail places for me that I--you know. I'd never been there. I didn't know anything about it, but for some reason it just seemed like the kind of place I would want to go to. --(sniffs)--And so thanks to Jimmy again,--(coughs)--who, who had an apartment there, that's where he got his start. --(sniffs)--He um, I, I kept telling him, I want go, I want to 01:18:00go to Vegas. And he said, "Well, why don't you come? After this season's over, just come. Get a plane and come. I'll meet you." --(coughs)-- And I said "So"--I had a,--I, I got on the plane. ----------?? Bought a one way ticket to Las Vegas. I had one hundred dollars in my pocket. He met me at McCarran Field, --(coughs)-- got me high and then drove me down the strip. I mean, it was like, Oh my God, I'd never seen so many rhinestones and lights in my life. I was just--it was, it, it was just unbelievable. And he took me to see, took me to see shows, and I was just blown away. I'm totally blown away. --(sniffs)--And so um, I was staying with him. And I didn't know what I was doing there, but eventually he helped me meet somebody who ran wardrobe for the MGM Grand. --(sniffs)--I went over and I, you know, and--and then he decided he had to leave. I'd been there about two weeks and I was like, I don't want go. So he kind of helped me find 01:19:00an apartment and he left. Well, I didn't have a car. I mean I'm in Las Vegas. I don't have a car. So I had to get a place close enough that I could walk to work. And I was in this two bedroom apartment that was--had no furniture. I mean, I was literally--for the first monthI was sleeping on the floor with my suitcase for a pillow under a coat. --(sniffs)--Anyway eventually, I did get a job working backstage at the MGM Grand. Uh, a friend of mine, my best friend, Johnny, my sister,--he came. He got a job dancing in the show. I mean, literally, he was such a conniver. He showed up and within, within I mean,-- by the time I got home from work that night, he had a bed for us. I was like,--he was out--he was like so, so good. --(sniffs)-- Anyway, he and I eventually went to Reno and we worked there. And um, anyway, after a couple of years, I--you know, it was just a party all the time. And I, I kind of realized, Uhn, this isn't like really good for me. And I --(sighs)-- I 01:20:00probably, I, you know, I needed to get out. --(sniffs)--Because I knew, --you know, I mean,--you know, there were some kids who came there and they just fell into really bad, you know, into drugs. And, and I just--and--but then there were others who came and they were very disciplined and they would make a fortune and then go off to New York. --(coughs)--And so I just said--and I--and by then, I had been in contact with the theater in Texas, and they were wanting me back. And --(sniffs)--so in '83, I went back. Well, I met this young dancer, Laurie. And um, there was just kind of a connection, and in that year there was like a group. There was a core group that I really hung out with and it was like several dancers and my assistant and, and, and we were. And that was like a huge party summer. I mean, we were doing everything that wasn't nailed down and, and working all the time. And, and so, um, we got to be really, really good friends. And there was just kind of this--we 01:21:00just--(pauses)--communicated. Okay. --(sniffs)--Meanwhile, I was, I was--there was a guy I was living with, I mean, one of the ASMs [Assistant Stage Managers]. And that was one of those people that I probably most regret having left that relationship go, because --(coughs)--at the end of that summer, I went home. Jeffrey got sick. He got sick. He came down--I can't remember. He had um, I don't remember, but he had to leave early --(sniffs)--and I left and went back home to Kentucky. I was at my parents house and I got a call. I got a call from Jeff and he said, "I'm going to be coming through Kentucky on my way to grad school and I want to stop and see you." And I couldn't say no. Uh, meanwhile, I had started writing to Laurie. I was writing her letters, because I was kind of like, Wow, she's really a neat person. We were writing. --(sniffs)-- And so he came. And my parents were there. It, it was just, it was 01:22:00just so,--again, it was another one of those surreal moments of my life. And he stayed overnight. --(sniffs)--You know, he you know,--(laughs)--we--he stayed in my bedroom.--(laughs)-- You know, I--it was just weird and I--

Sisko: So it wasn't spoken, of--

Fields: --No.--(sniffs)--

Sisko: --that, Oh, this person,--like this man--

Fields: --(nods negatively)--No.--

Sisko: --is sleeping. Oh. interesting.--

Fields: --I mean, but it had to be obvious. I guess. I guess.--

Sisko: --I imagine.--

Fields: --I don't know. I don't know. I'm so totally stoned. I don't know what I'm doing. And so he, he, he left. And he--we parted and I kind of was like I can't do this because I, --(sighs)--I mean, I never really said that, but I did. And, and, you know and then he left, and that was last time I ever saw him. So --(coughs)--I stayed there that winter and I went back to, I went back to Texas. Meanwhile, I continued to write 01:23:00Laurie. --(sniffs)-- We were exchanging letters back and forth. Well, at that point, I had been hired to do the new show that they were opening the next year, which was this big gigantic production. So I uh,--right after he left, I think, in the fall I left and I went back to Texas because we were doing, you know-- well, it would've been early because he was on his way to school. So it would have been September maybe. So I went back to Texas and I was there all winter as we built the new show. I designed and built the new show. --(sniffs)--And that was a huge--that, that experience was unbelievable. I can't. I mean, that's a whole other interview. Just that, that production, and so I'm not going to go there. Um, but I had convinced Laurie to audition and come back. Well, then there was another guy that I had always been kind of--had a big crush on. And for the first time,--okay, so she comes back. And I didn't know what I was doing. I--but I was 01:24:00kind of at that point, out. You know, I just had this thing with Jeff. And then, you know, so--right? It got so close to home there. And um, so she came back. He came back. And, and suddenly Jim started kind of--he seemed like he was paying attention to me. And I mean, for a year before, I'd been like, you know, or two years before that, whatever it was. You know, and um--and so as we went through the rehearsal process, which was intense, it was an intense--it was probably the most intense the theatrical experiences of my life. You know, I had these two people. Right? And at some point in there, I kind of said, "I have to make a choice here." And I've just had such a bad track record with --(pauses)-- men. And she doesn't seem to care. I mean, she doesn't--I 01:25:00mean, she knew about me. She knew who I was. --(sniffs)--And she just didn't--that didn't seem to matter. --(coughs)--Oh, I forgot I had a--(laughs)--first year I was in Houston after I got to Texas, I had a really intense sexual relationship with a woman. --(laughs)--Anyway, that--okay--so that--forget that one. --(coughs)--But it, it kind of fueled that desire. It was weird. It was just a weird thing. And I mean, it was just intense. --(sniffs)--So it wasn't that I--so anyway, so--(pauses)--I--(pauses)--um--

Sisko: So she didn't seem to mind that, you were--

Fields: --No.--

Sisko: --had been involved with men--

Fields: --No. No.No.--

Sisko: --before.

Fields: No. No.

Sisko: Didn't bother her?

Fields: That didn't bother her.--

Sisko: --Yeah.

Fields: --(sniffs)--I mean, she never--I mean, but this other woman, she kept saying, "but you're gay." And I kept saying, "But how gay do I seem?" --(laughs)-- ----------?? Really? That's your response to me? --(laughs)-- And so anyway, so then Laurie never said that. She never did throw that up and make it an issue. --(sniffs)--She just kind of seemed to enjoy 01:26:00hanging out. And um, so anyway, so after the show opened, we went out to dinner, and I asked her to marry me. I just--it just, you know. Now looking back, because I've gone through therapy, looking back--you know, the AIDS [Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome] crisis was starting to build in the country right then. It was 1984. --(laughs)--You know, and while I don't know that I connected with that, it's still--I think it must have played something. I mean, between that--again, another perfect storm.--(laughs)--Between that--the--you know with my parents, you know--and so, and we got married that summer.

Sisko: How long had you known each other by that point like--

Fields: --Well, a year. I mean, because I--she-- we had worked together the year before.--

Sisko: --Right, and--(Fields sniffs)--you wrote to other ----------??--

Fields: --I had never met her parents. So when we called everybody and said, "Guess what? We're getting married this summer, you're 01:27:00invited to the wedding."--(laughs)-- Laurie's father just about had a heart attack. And of course, my mother was like skywriting it I think. They were like, We'll be there. No problem. And, so we got through all of that and we got married and then we moved back, so Laurie could finish school. And that began twenty five--I was married for twenty-five years.

Sisko: You mentioned that eventually the marriage end.--

Fields: --Well,--(pauses)--yeah. So we were married twenty-five years and I think over time --(sniffs)--we, we had a child. Uh, who's you know, um, my pride and joy. And she's now a doctor, um.

Sisko: Wow.

Fields: Um, I just became a grandfather six months ago. Um. And so--(sighs)--we had--we were good friends. We had a good relationship. I mean, but over time, I think--I don't know this for certain. But over time--well, I 01:28:00do know this for certain. Over time, I began to become very angry and very bitter. I mean it --(coughs)--so I-- we went to--some time after that, we went back to grad school. I finished. I went back and finished my degree here. You know, we went on to grad school together. I mean, we had a toddler and we were both as grad students, her and dance me in theater. And that was intense. And, and then I came out of that and suddenly, I was like, Oh, I've got this--I've got a child and I've got family. And, and somebody had said somewhere while I was in grad school, "You're really good at teaching," because I was teaching a class. So I, I got a teaching job at a university. --(sniffs)--Right out--you know, but I was a little bit older, so I wasn't--and I had a lot of experience. I wasn't like a twenty-two year old or twenty-four year old coming out of grad school. And --(coughs)--so we began, you know, building a life and eventually, I wound up back 01:29:00here. I got a call from here and they said, "Would you please, come." Mary was retiring or they wanted her to. And, and we wound up back here. And that was about time my--all of my siblings were gone. My parents were here by themselves. And they were starting-they were retired, but they were getting up--the timing was good. And so we did. I came back and I kind of came back not thinking I would stay, but it--then it just worked out that way. But so over time, I think I began to--(pauses)--regret that I wasn't able to--I mean, I still maintained a professional career because I had to because of my teaching job, but it wasn't enough for me. It just never was enough. And you know, I just started--it was little things. I think. I, I mean, I would just get angry at the dumbest things and little things that were just not important. And, you know, Laurie kept handing me these books on you know, spirituality, and 01:30:00meanwhile, I had just totally said, you know, God's dead. I don't--you know none of that. And, and I would look at these books and it was like, it was like reading a foreign language. It's like, it's--it didn't mean anything. --(sniffs)--And I think in her own quiet way, she was trying to help. But, you know, anyway, so eventually I think I was--I got to the place where I, I think maybe it began to scare her a little bit in terms of this anger that was building there. And so she very quietly said, "I think"--I mean, I now look back and I go, I think her thinking was, If I don't get him out of this, he's gonna--and I think I might have killed myself. I--because it was just getting, you know--it was just dumb things. And I didn't, you know, I was not happy at work. I wasn't, you know. You know. And so it was hard. It was difficult because--and she--(sighs)-- you know, and she did it 01:31:00so,--it was done--it was all so quiet. I mean, it was amicable. I mean, once I realized she wasn't gonna go back, I was like, Okay, but it was still hard. I mean, you can't untie twenty five years of your life with somebody in it, you know. Um, but it was probably as--(pauses)--painless as possible, even though that's kind of just ----------??. So and, you know, and then it was--as soon as that happened--(sniffs)--I mean, there was one moment of this--(sniffs)--I had this huge, um, emotional breakdown. And um, um, because of some things that had happened. And by then I had started seeing a therapist. You know, that was like one of the first things, I mean. And, and I had this huge breakdown. I mean, I just--I mean, literally, I mean,--I think, I mean,--I wound up in a fetal position on the floor. I was--it was a mess. And as it 01:32:00turned out, I had a point with my therapist like two days later.--(laughs)-- And so I go into this session and I just--I mean, I sat down and he looked at me and he said, "Well, how's it going?" I'd had one session with him. Well, I just--and the first session had not been very productive because I was kind of like, This is really weird, and you know. I mean, I kind of told him I was gay and my marriage was coming apart. I told him all those things. But he said, "So how are things this week?" And I just opened my mouth and it just all came out. Everything that had happened. I sobbed for like fifty minutes. I just, you know--and the anger and everything. --(sniffs)-- And he--(laughs)--and I finally--I just collapsed, exhausted on the couch, and I you know--I had, you know, Kleenex and, you know. And he's--(laughs)--he sat there for a minute. He looked at me and he said, "You know, you keep trying to put that square peg in that round hole and until you stop doing it, this is gonna happen." And so that was another one of those ah-ha moments for me. I just--it 01:33:00was like, --[whispers]--Oh my God. So I think at that point I walked out of that session and I went, I've got to change my life. I've got to--you know, this is you know,--I can't. --(sniffs)--So I--and we were still living together at that point. I mean, I literally-I went home. The next day, I called my daughter, who is UK in school, and I said, "I need help. I've got to find an apartment." And she said, "Well, Dad just go up--" I said, "I need it to be near UK." And she said, "Just go to Upper. Go to that area. Just get out of the car. Walk around. They'll be signs." You know. --(laughs)--Okay. So I did. I mean, that afternoon and sure enough, I found,--you know, by that evening I had an apartment. --(sniffs)-- And I moved out like Thanksgiving weekend two, --two weeks later. And so I just--at that point, I began taking charge and, you know, because I was going to therapy like twice a week,--twice--two times a month, you know, every two weeks and um. And I just--I worked as hard 01:34:00for the next two or three years, you know. Um, I kept meeting guys and trying to get in relationships and of course that was a disaster. --(laughs)--Every--you know, it's like, Yeah. Right. This is not the best idea. --(coughs)--But I was going out. You know, I started you know,--(sniffs)--I started going to bars. And course, it was weird because I you know, I was trying to--I picked up where I left off. Well, the world's changed in--(laughs)--twenty-five years. You know, people aren't meeting in bars anymore really, and,--(sniffs)--and so I tried online dating. That didn't work very well. And I just kept working at it. And I mean, meanwhile, as--you know, I was going to the--I started going the gym. I started losing some weight, you know, because I was getting kind of big at that point. I mean, I was like two twenty-- two--you know. And --(coughs)--so I lost weight. I'm--you know, I felt better. I um, you know, I just--I was, I was reading. I was meditating. I started meditating. 01:35:00Um, just, you know, suddenly those books Laurie had been giving me--it was like, Oh, my God, this makes so much sense --(laughs)--now. You know. --(sneezes)-- And I was devouring those books. --(coughs)----(sniffs)--And you know I, and I, I mean, I worked really, really hard. You know. I mean, I lived in that apartment for three years. Meanwhile, my daughter's finishing school and, --(sniffs)--you know, she became like, my biggest supporter.--(sniffs)-- Uh, Laurie and I got through the divorce okay, and you know, we've--you know, over time--I mean, we're not hanging out together, but, you know, we talk to each other periodically, see how each other's doing. And um, you know, when I would--there was a moment when--(sneezes)--excuse me. Um, there was a moment when I kind of had this realization of least what I thought she had done, and I had to just--you know, I emailed her and said, you know, "Thanks. Thank you for--" I think I said "Thank you for saving my life,"--(sighs)-- 01:36:00because I feel like that's kind of what she did. You know it--(sniffs)--Anyway, so, so I dated. I mean, I dated a few people. Again, they were all disasters. You know. --(sniffs)--Suddenly--but it was also weird because--(sniffs)--as I was,--(sighs)--it wasn't like I ever hid who I was when I was married. I mean, there were people that I always confessed like, Well, I'm gay, but,--(sniffs)-- you know, maybe I'm bisexual, Although I don't think that's right. I mean, I'm not--it's not, it's not--that's not what I am.--(sniffs)--Um, and it was kind of interesting, the response I got from a lot of people. You know, when I would meet--you know, as I began being reintroduced into that community. Because that was the other thing I realized was--that I gave up was the community. --(laughs)--You know, and I--and it made me think back to the community of church. And it was like so I gave up this other community. And, and 01:37:00so in some ways I felt like I was doing penance that for a while--(sniffs)--because I would have people say to me, you know what I'd say "Well, I was married," and they go--they'd be like, You what? And, you know, and there was that kind of like--I felt like I was somehow not worthy. I got over that.--(sniffs)--And so, again, I you know, I was going out again. And I you know, by then, you know, my daughter's--she's graduating from college and going off to medical school. And--(sniffs)--you know, I've discharged all those duties as a parent and, --(pauses)--and I began to find that I can have a life again, that was a way. You know, and my relationship to my work got much healthier then. You know, I began to detach from that. I wasn't so, you know,--I kind of began to let go of it emotionally. Um, and it's gradually, --(sighs)--over time, I've just--(sniffs)-- 01:38:00you know, I've, I've begun to love myself. Because that's what it was all about. I just--I mean, there was one point as our marriage was breaking up, Laurie and I were having--Laurie and I never really argued. We,we weren't good at that.--(both laugh)-- We really weren't. I mean, neither one of us really liked confrontation, so. --(sniffs)-- But as we were splitting up, we did have some conversations, sometimes intense. --(coughs)--And there was one moment when I, you know, I just broke down and I said, "You know. I hate myself so much, I don't even like being in the same room with myself." You know, and that was really, for me, telling. And I think for her, too. I mean--I think, you know--I mean, she would--I mean, I remember the look on her face was kind of like, Whoa! You know? And so I, I mean, through the therapy and, you know, renewing my spirituality, you know, finding 01:39:00that part of my life again, --(sniffs)--of I just, you know, have spent all that time learning to love myself. I mean, the other part of it was, you know, I, I became a victim. I, I you know, I, I--in my mind, I was always a victim. You know, it's what I've come to refer to as my victim mentality. --(sniffs)--That I --(sniffs)--I mean, I would literally play these scenarios in my head where, you know, I you know, I would be like-- um, you know, somehow I was always being victimized. You know, if it was going to a meeting at work, somehow I was gonna get victimized. And, and I realized it was just this thing. I was constantly making myself a victim. And so I--you know, through meditation, I just, you know--and even now, I mean, sometimes, you know, I get in a stressful situation and I go there. You know, and I'm just, you know, in my head, I'm going Release. Release. Release. Let it go. Let it go. You know, and you're--just get out of my head. Get out of my head. And, 01:40:00and now--and so there was this constant stream of voices in my head. You know, not the bad kind. --(both laugh)-- --(sniffs)--

Sisko: No, I understand.--(laughs)--

Fields: You know. Like, I'm not going out somewhere. But now, for the most part, I mean, I would say 90 percent the time it's quiet in there now. You know, I don't--I turned off the TV. I don't listen. You know, I don't listen to people screaming at me, you know, and I control all of that. You know. Um,--(coughs)--I've created a home. You know, I bought a how--I bought a house.--(sniffs)--Found a house. I bought it. That was very empowering for me. And um, I got, you know--and so now I have a, I have a beautiful life. I really--I love, I love myself. I mean, I can honestly say that. And it's,--(sighs)--you know, anybody that's--I feel like anybody that's not being able to be who they are,--I, you know, I, you know, I see, you know, I see students now who are struggling with that and 01:41:00it's like, Man, just let it go. It'll be okay. It'll be okay. You know. Um, so I, again, I you know, I uh about to,--well, actually, four years ago, --(sniffs)--I met this guy. And we've been seeing each other ever since. And I think you know it--I mean, I call him my partner now. I don't--you know, he's, he's incredibly generous. We're about the same age, so that's great. Uh, you know, we're both at the university, so we have those interests in common. But, you know, he's a scientist.--(laughs)-- First time I've ever dated anybody or been with anybody that wasn't in the arts in some way.--(sniffs)-- And that's been refreshing for me. uh, it's kind of opened--uh, it's helped me, again, detach more from my work and be, you know, it's like find other interests. And I think that's been very good. I think the nice 01:42:00thing--I think--(laughs)--one of the first--early on, he you know, he was kind of like really standoffish at first. And of course, I was still kind of--(laughs)--I got to get in a relationship. I got to be with somebody, you know. And he was kind like, Just back off a little bit.--(sniffs)--But at one point he--we were having a serious conversation, as I always want to do, and I think it was like a struggle for him. And he said, "You know, I can't be responsible for your happiness." And I--and, and my first thought to that was of "Of course you can." But then later I thought about it like, That's right. He can't be because I'm the only one that can do that.--(sniffs)-- And I think that was another one of those turning moments maybe with him because I realize he, he just always lets me be me. He doesn't--there's never any--he's never asking me to be something he expects. 01:43:00There's really,--you know because I think one of the things that I learned was to just have no expectations, and that one was hard for me. But it's right. And he doesn't seem to do that. And so, as a result, I'm kind of let him--I'm able to let him be who he is. And it's,--and so it's not you know, there's no rush to--it's just--it's kind of happening organically. --(sniffs)--But, of course I think it's also when you're sixty, you don't quite jump into relationships--(laughs)--the way you do when you're twenty,--(laughs)--you know, or twenty-one or whatever. --(sniffs)--So--(coughs)--that's been a really great um part. And I think--I just continue to relax and enjoy my life. And I mean, there was a time when I was like, Oh, my God, I've got to meet somebody, I don't have that much time left. And, you know, once I got past that, it was like, just, Just relax and, um. So I'm hoping, at least I'm 01:44:00hopeful that --(sniffs)--it'll all.

Sisko: I hope so, too.

Fields: Yeah. --(sniffs)--

Sisko: --Yeah, definitely. You mentioned that --(coughs)--you both are at UK.

Fields: Um-hm --(nods affirmatively)--

Sisko: So, I want to ask you --(Fields sniffs)--about campus life.--(Fields sniffs)--And you know, since returning to Lexington,--

Fields: --(nods affirmatively)----Um-hm--

Sisko: --which is like a really uh, stark turn in your journey. Like, you're coming back to Lexington --(Fields coughs)--after all --(Fields nods affirmatively)--of that. So you come back here. You become a professor. I want to hear more about your campus life in terms of --(Fields sniffs)--your experience on campus in relation to your identity. You know,--

Fields: --Uh-hm--

Sisko: --so like to what extent?--um, well, just tell me about it. --(laughs)--

Fields: --(coughs)--Well,--(laughs)--you know, it's interesting when I--(coughs)--when all this started happening, you know my marriage started falling apart. You know, I kind of went--(laughs)--you know, I was--I started looking for resources. Like, you know, where can I go for help? I mean, I was seeing a therapist, but, you know, at the same time, I didn't,I 01:45:00didn't know anybody in the community. And I mean, I did, but it wasn't--they weren't in the community. They were, you know,--(sniffs)--kind of--and so, there were no resources on campus. I mean, that was the first place I looked. I mean, there was the student organization, but, you know, I'm a faculty member. That's not --(laughs)--hardly appropriate. And there wasn't any--I mean, there was no way on campus to connect with other um,--(coughs)--faculty or staff that were gay or lesbian or--(sniffs)--I mean, I knew a few people, but it was, you know, and they were very helpful. I mean, in terms of inviting me out to do things and, but again, they were my colleagues and it was a little bit limiting in some ways. So about three years ago, I was--(laughs)--I happened to be reading through UK now and I saw this article about this new LGBTQ [Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Queer Questioning] resource center that was opening on campus and the man 01:46:00that was heading it up. And so I read the article and I was like, Oh, my God. So I thought, Oh, wait. So I called. I called his office and made an appointment, and, and then went over to talk to Lance. And--(sniffs)--and I kind of explained what had happened to me and I was--you know. And he very --(laughs)--quickly offered me a place on the board, the advisory board for the office. He said, "I've got this. I'm just starting this and I'm going to have an advisory board. And would you be interested?" --(sniffs)--And I said, "Yes. I would." And so I got involved that way. --(sniffs)-- And that's been really great because it's allowed me to meet other members of the faculty, staff, um--and, you know, and I--of course, I had to come out again to, you know,--which I think maybe for some of my students was initially a shock. They were kind of like, What's going on here? Um, of course, those students are all gone now. So the ones that are here now, they don't, they 01:47:00don't know any different. Right? Because the thing about students is, they go, and then new ones come and --(sniffs)--but it's allowed me to get involved on the campus. I'm not a--I don't think I, I don't think of myself as an activist. I don't--but at the same time, this is kind of obviously a passion for me. um, and so--(coughs)--I served on the board for two years. And then I think that gradually evolved into something else. And by then I was moving on to other things. But then I got involved with the Feast on Equality Planning Committee. He asked me to be on that. --(sniffs)--And so--but the nice thing is--it's like now, I'm starting to see, like students in my program or in the college that are gay, they're starting to--(pauses)--come to me. I mean--but just--it's like suddenly I feel like I'm being watched. And, and hopefully, I mean, I did the safe 01:48:00zone training, so, you know,--and I feel like maybe I, I'm seeing students look at me like going, Wow.--[whispers]--He's sixty and he's gay.--(laughs)--Wow. It's somebody that's older and gay like me. um, and that's it. I mean, you know, it's--and so for me, that's, that's okay. That's good. Maybe, maybe at some point a student will, you know, need me for help or advice or whatever, and I can be there. Um, uh. And I could be open to that. So um, other than that,--I mean, I just feel much more alive, in my work. Again, it's not--I'm not as emotionally connected. And part of that is, I'm, I'm emotionally connected to this place because I've been here for so long. I've been in and out of it for so long.--(sniffs)-- And I don't think in some ways that was 01:49:00healthy, and I feel like now I've learned to detach myself. And now my connection is a little more healthy. You know, I can leave here. I can-- you know, I have, I have other interests outside of here that, you know. You know, I love hanging out with gay people.--(laughs)--Right? It's, It's like suddenly I have a community again, that for years I denied. You know. You know, the--you know, I had another community--that I mean it's so odd. I guess --(sniffs)--I find it ironic. I gave up this community for my family. I kind of look at it that way. --(coughs)--But in the end, it didn't, it didn't matter. I mean, it does matter to them. I think sometimes they don't quite--they still don't --(pauses)--understand it, and they, they still--(sighs)--it's not that they don't love me, but I 01:50:00sometimes feel like, well, it's a little bit conditional. Um, it's not--(sighs)--they're never going to embrace it. It's funny, I--(coughs)--Terry and I went to San Francisco over Thanksgiving two years ago. And we were there with a friend who was from Kentucky, and another--we met another friend of hers who was from Kentucky and --(sniffs)--we had Thanksgiving dinner, and we had consumed several bottles of wine, and we were talking. --(coughs)--And, and, and I was talking about the struggle of trying to get my family to. deal with this. And, --(coughs)-- --(laughs)--and Bill said, "You know. It's not that they mind you being gay. They just don't want to know about it." He said "and that's, that's just Kentucky. You know, they just don't want to know." And I think that's right. I mean, it's, it's, it's--and I had to get to a place where I could say, Well, I just have to let them be who they are. And I don't know 01:51:00that I'm totally there yet. I mean, I guess I'm always--there's this little part of me that keeps hoping maybe. But it is again what it is. And I can't, I can't fix it. It's not my job to fix it, which, you know, I would say for me, I have spent all of my life being afraid. And I think,-- you know, it's kind of the best little boy in the world syndrome. You know? It's, it's that, Oh, if I, if I'm the best little boy, nobody on notice I'm gay. Right?--(sniffs)-- Which is an interesting book, and, you know, I recommend it to anybody.--(coughs)--But, but as a result of that, I have spent all of my life being afraid that, you know, somebody was gonna find out. And, in the end, they all knew anyway. So, I can't--and I think as a result, I kept trying to fix things. That, you know, that 01:52:00was one of the things that came up in my therapy. It's like--it's not--and I've finally gotten to the place where I go, It's not my job to fix it. It's not my place to fix that or this. It's not my job to make my family be who I think they ought to be. It's--they have to get there at whatever pace they get there, when they get there. Um, and I just have to let that go.

Sisko: What's the status of your relationship with your family now in terms of how much you do --(Fields sniffs)--or don't talk about--

Fields: --(coughs)--Well, it's--

Sisko: --your identity.

Fields. --um, I tend to force the issue. I mean,--

Sisko: --Really?

Fields: there's some--(both laugh)--there are some family members--you know, I have, I have one family member that she and her family are pretty accepting. I think it's a little --(pauses)--odd for them at times, but, but they really work at it. Um, the rest of my family, it's like I can bring him up, but nobody ever asks. You know, like nobody ever says, 01:53:00you know, How's Terry doing? You know, How's this? Um, --(laughs)--this is funny. I, I was talking--my mother is still alive. And I, you know, I was talking to her not too long ago and I said, --(sniffs)-- "So I'm thinking I'll probably come down to visit you soon." She's in Alabama. "Probably come to visit you soon." I said "I was thinking I'd bring Terry with me." And she was like, Well, okay. And there was a long pause. And she said, "But, you know, of course, I don't agree with that." It's like, That's fine, Mom. You don't have to agree with it. What's to agree with? But, okay whatever. But I mean, it's not like they're mean to,--you know? I mean, I've taken him at Christmas a couple of times. It's not like--nobody is mean or ugly. They're very polite. But it's just kind of this--I don't know, it's, it's, it's improving. It's better. It, you know, it is what it is. I mean. I mean, I'm very fortunate.

I mean, his family is just unbelievably loving and accepting. He has siblings and, you know, they all-- we all get together all the time, you know, 01:54:00and --(sniffs)--um. And I appreciate that. You know, I really do appreciate that. --(coughs)--But I have to appreciate my family, too. You know, I, I mean, I love them.

Sisko: Yeah, you mentioned--

Fields: --But I can't--

Sisko: --that they--

Fields: --fix it.

Sisko: --supported you with--

Fields: --Well. Right. Yes,--

Sisko: --with the theatre stuff and all.--

Fields: --if you go back on when I was younger.

Sisko: --Yeah--

Fields: You know, I do. I mean, that was--that--I think that may have been the moment when I went--you know, I do remember my mom,--my dad never did know. He was--about the time all this happened, he was dying, and so he didn't--I never really told him. --(sniffs)-- And, and I did have a--you know, when I told my mother,--when I came out to my mother on the phone, it was on the phone. I couldn't do it in person. You know, her first response was, "Well, your father and I always thought--" How did she put it? --"We always thought you would--you'd grow out of it". That was exactly the way she put it. And so, and I,--at the time it didn't register and then later got off the 01:55:00phone it's like, So they obviously knew. They talked about it. We thought you'd grow out of it. And so it wasn't--again, it was just reinforcement that they knew. --(coughs)--But in some ways I think,--well, maybe it's just a fantasy I have. I like to think that my dad would have been accepting because he obviously knew there was something different. And yet he just--I mean, he was probably my biggest supporter in terms of coming to see my shows. I mean, he,you know, he never--he would always come. So maybe that's just something I ----------?? you know. I don't know, maybe I'm create--making that up, but I don't think so. I kind of feel like, --(sniffs)--you know, at one point I always thought--You know, --(laughs)-- I was never very good with you know, tools and making thing, you know? I mean, carpentry or plumbing. I,-- you know, it was like he always kind of taught my brothers how to do those things, but he never--but I never felt 01:56:00like I learned how to do some of that stuff. --(sniffs)--And there was a period there when I was in therapy, I kind of got angry with him because like, Why didn't you afford me that same opportunity that you did, my brothers? And I realize, well, it's probably because on some level he understood I wouldn't be interested. --(laughs)--You know. I mean, he never--I mean, my mother objected to me sewing. He could have cared less. He was like--you know, he, he was fine with that. He never said to me, "Oh, boys, don't do that." And so, you know I don't, I don't know. I mean, I, I can't, um. I feel like, again, they are who they are. And--

Sisko: --I think that's the conclusion a --(Fields sniffs)-- lot of us ultimately reach.

Fields: --Um-hm.--

Sisko: --We can't.--there's only so much you can do.

Fields: That's right.

Sisko: Yes. Um, This is going to be probably my last question before--

Fields: --Okay.--

Sisko: --I ask if there's anything else--

Fields: --Okay.--

Sisko: --you wanted to mention that we haven't --(Fields sniffs)--talked about. But you've mentioned a few times um, you know, Lexington and the gay scene during the --(Fields coughs)-- seventies and then --(Fields sips water)-- you left for a bit. Um, and then you came back and you mentioned, Ooh, people, no early meet in bars anymore.--

Fields: --Um-hm--

Sisko--(laughs)-- They date online. --(Fields sniffs)--Obviously, big changes have happened--

Fields: --Um-hm.--

Sisko: --over the years. And so I wanted to ask you --(Fields coughs)-- um to think about Lexington then.

Fields: Um-hm.

Sisko: You know, when you were younger,--(Fields sniffs)-- was an undergrad and Lexington now. --(Fields nods affirmatively)--And what has, what has changed and what has remained the same --(Fields sniffs)--for you?

Fields: Well, --(coughs)--hm, I think um, well, there's more gay bars. --(both laugh)--

Um, but I think, I think what has changed is--I think, you know in the seventies, the gay community was still kind of this subculture, kind of under the radar. I mean, it was starting to--you know, obviously it was--there was the beginnings of a movement to--(sniffs)--but it was still very much 01:58:00a you know hook up and,--(coughs)-- you know, you went to bars and, you know, there was a lot of, you know, meet somebody, have sex. You know, you're in love for a week. --(laughs)--Find somebody else. Um and relationships, you know, there were a lot more open relationships, it seemed like. --(sniffs)--I mean, that was kind of the norm. And somebody that was in a closed relationship ----------?? well they're weird. And I think maybe and I don't know, I guess, I kind of surmised that, you know, the AIDS crisis kind of changed a lot of that. Uh, but it seems like it's more groups of friends out. I mean, it was always that way, but now it's not--it doesn't feel so much like it's about sex anymore. It's, it's the, it's you know, it's just people. Of course now I'm also out with a lot older crowd. So I don't--you know, I'm not hanging out with twenty-one-year-olds. So I don't know, maybe that's still happening at that 01:59:00level. --(sniffs)-- Um, but it feels a little bit more--I mean I still see, you know, couples in open relationships. I still--you know, but it seems I see more and more--and of course, now with marriage equality, you know, I'm seeing more married couples. Um, and I think it's hard to say because again, in the seventies I was twenty-one. Now I'm sixty-one and that's--it, it just changes the, uh--but I think there's a closeness of--it's--you know, even if you're out late at night, you know, in a club, it's still a lot more conversation and, you know, it's, it's--there's issues being discussed. There's people,--you know, you can talk to people and you--it's not--there's a more--seriousness to the conversation maybe? Um, but the community is still there. There's still--that's 02:00:00the biggest thing is--I think that sense of community is still there. The nice thing is I see more and more where, it's not a gay bar. It's just a bar where you feel comfortable. And I--and we go out. I mean, we go out a lot. We go out to a lot of different places in downtown, and, and I you know, even though we're not in a gay establishment, I don't feel like I can't be who I am with him. It's like there's more and more places, --(sniffs)--now it's mostly downtown. If I go out in the suburbs, I don't know that I would feel that comfortable. But, but you know what I'm saying? It's not.

Sisko: Yeah, I think--(Fields coughs)--there's several bars--

Fields: --(nods affirmatively)--Right.--

Sisko: --downtown where it's not like --(Fields sniffs)- they're a gay bar,--

Fields: --Right.

Sisko: --but they are gay friendly, you know.--

Fields: --Right.--

Sisko: --or anyone friendly.--

Fields: --And I don't think it's that way. It's like,--

Sisko: --Yeah.--

Fields: --you can just go be yourself.--

Sisko: --Right, because it's just a bar. --(laughs)--

Fields: --Because I go--you know, we go to this same bar all the 02:01:00time, that technically was a gay bar. But I think the owners really are trying to make it just--it's just-- people are here. And so, yes, you sometimes you go in, and it feels very straight. And then other times you go in, it feels kind of gay. And then --(Sisko laughs)--sometimes, but you never feel like you can't be who you are. And so I guess I'm hopeful that that's kind of a change in just the society as a whole that you can, you can--it's not gonna matter and--in some ways, I think, and I've talked to some people about this, in some ways it's maybe a little sad because I look at it and I go, well, maybe that's--we're seeing the end of the gay bar. Right? Because you don't have to go to a bar where--that's--you don't have to go to a gay bar. You can go anyplace and be --(Sniffs)--or, well, most any place. --(coughs)--But there's more options for you to go out and socialize and be part of the larger community. You know, suddenly it's um,--and maybe-- but I think, you know, for younger people--look, they 02:02:00don't have to go through a lot of that. It's--you know, they won't know any different. Um. I mean, for me, it's maybe a little sad, but, but, you know, in terms of meeting somebody, it was hard because, you know, again, that's what I knew to do. Is-- you go to a bar. You meet somebody. You might hook up. But, but, you know, that wasn't happening. I mean, I wasn't being able to do that. There was--you know, it was kind of-- you know, it was hard to break into groups and, you know,--not that it was cliquey, but it was just kind of this--(sniffs)--sense of, you know, we're already established as a community and you're, you know, um. So, and online doesn't--I mean --(laughs)--online is like--I mean, if you're looking for a legitimate dating site, there's is not hardly anybody. I mean, as a few people on there, but it was amazing how many people I had to 02:03:00communicate with that were in another city, in another state because there wasn't that many people in Lexington. The others are just hookup sites, and I wasn't really interested in that. I mean, you know, the bars have changed to online hookup. Um, so I, I think that's--it's, it's just the shift that's--

Sisko: Yeah, it sounds like a shift [Fields sniffs] on multiple levels because, you know, obviously, like, --(Fields nods affirmatively)--yes, you were in your twenties--

Fields: --Um-hm--

Sisko: --before and you're older now, but it seems like there is --(Fields coughs)-- some societal shifts--

Fields: --Yes--

Sisko: -- that you're pointing at. You know?

Fields: But I think being able to--but the nice thing is I feel like I can go out and be part of the larger community, not just, you know--

Sisko: --You're not just trapped in your building anymore.

Fields: Exactly.

Sisko: Yeah. Yeah.--

Fields: --Exactly. And I think that's maybe the biggest thing and the nicest thing. But you know what? You're still something nice about being in my building.

Sisko: Right.--

Fields: --You know.--

Sisko: Of course.

Fields: Right?

Sisko: Um hm.

Fields: So. --(sniffs)--

Sisko: Um, let's see. What else I want to mention? Is there anything else you would like to mention that we haven't touched on or discussed? There are a lot of questions I was going to ask. But I--(Fields sniffs)-- realized as you were talking, you were answering them --(Fields laughs)--as you were talking. Um, but is there anything that, you know, comes to mind for you that you want to ask or say or?

Fields: Um, other than----(sighs)--you know, it's been--(sighs)--it's been a real, a strange journey for me, to get where I am now. Um, but I did it.--(laughs)--And I feel good about that um. I wouldn't go back, for anything, I mean. And, you know, there's time--there's been times when I go--I--you know, people always say, Well, you know, but just think about what you got from a marriage. You know, you have this beautiful daughter. It's like, yeah, but, you know, I really don't want to put that off on --(laughs)-- her. It's not really fair. Um, I had to get to a 02:05:00place where, you know, I could say, This was your journey and this is what you did and it's fine. You know, again, it's like when I would say to my friends, like, why were you able to do that, and I couldn't? I had to get to the place where I was like, well, that just doesn't matter. You've done it. Now you've done it.--(laughs)-- Now you've done it. Um, and that--(pauses)--you know, so what it means is then,I--you know, I've got the rest of my life to be me and not um, --(pauses)--not worry about all the other junk. I mean, I will say, you know, currently, I mean, it's nice not feeling afraid again for the first time, but, you know, lately in our society it's--I've begun to feel a little bit more afraid again. But I'm learning to kind of put that--to say, No. You don't have to do that. Um. And I think it's, as my therapist said, You know, look, 02:06:00you've got all these tools, these new tools and uh. You know, at one point it's like you should take them out for a spin. --(laughs)-- And I think that's one of the ways I do it, is, you know. I go, well, Why are you afraid? You know, it's like--it's just these people who are trying to make you afraid. You know, they want to make a lot of us afraid, I think. And I think that if you allow them to do that, then you're lost again. You know, because that's what I did all my life. Um, it feels good not to be afraid now.

Sisko: I'm glad you're in this place.--

Fields: --Yeah.

Sisko: And thank you for talking with me about all of this--

Fields: --You're very welcome.--

Sisko: --and sharing--being very open with me. Thank you.

Fields: You're very welcome.

Sisko: All right so--

--[recording ends]--