00:00:00HAY: Just let it go.
MAYVILLE: Yes. Sorry.
HAY: All right, this is the Old Montreal Distillery Oral History Project. Old
Montreal Distillery is part of the Sazerac du Canada company. Today is June the
thirteenth, 2018 and we're interviewing Art Dawe, who is the former master
blender of Seagram, and the interviewers are Drew Mayville and myself, Joanna Hay.
MAYVILLE: So, Art, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're
from--where, where you grew up? Tell us a little bit about your family, maybe
your parents and siblings.
DAWE: Um-hmm, okay. I am a Western Canadian, born in 1928. I was--lived in the
distillery town in New Westminster, British Columbia distillery. And--um--I had
no ideas of going into the distilling business in that early age, of
00:01:00course. But my--one thing my mother always used to accuse me, uh, whenever she
was preparing a dish of fish, she said, I would walk in from school and sniff
and she'd just say, "You and your damn nose." [laughs]
MAYVILLE: Because you didn't like it.
DAWE: I wasn't favourite of that--
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
DAWE: --wasn't--one of my favourite dishes anyways, so, and--so, I grew up in
that city and, uh, graduated from high school in 1945 and, um, went on to
university through--until 1949, and, um, was doing other things at that time,
not related to the distillery and I decided if I ever wanted to have a, a life
at home, and, and family, uh, that wasn't the life for me, being out
00:02:00on a tugboat all the time, which was, naturally my inclination for early life,
and the sea dragged me in. But so I, my neighbour came home one night and Tim
said to me that the distillery's looking for somebody, and I went to apply, so
that I did. So, I was hired on November 2, 1949 into the illustrious area called
dumping and blending. [laughs]
MAYVILLE: Dumping, yeah. That's the way it was.
HAY: And blending.
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
DAWE: Yup, and from which we took the formulas that were issued by Montreal--Roy
Martin was the signing chief blender at that time--and converted them into
actuality and getting barrels out of our maturing houses and dumping the
whiskies, and so that was my early start. So, one thing I observed
00:03:00was that, uh, "Hm, I don't necessarily want to be a clerk all my life," and I
kind of envied Roy sending out all these formulas, so I figured, if I'm going to
get ahead anywhere, I've got to go to Montreal, but I did not have the, the
luxury of saying, "Hey, I'd like to go to Montreal." So, after about--a couple
of years in that area, and I was moved around and, uh, gained more experience in
different departments--one of which was quality--I was recognized as, uh, as
part of the panel as having a pretty good nose, and, um, the, um--shortly--I
guess in 1954, um, Edgar Bronfman, Senior, of course and Roy were
00:04:00touring the distillers in North America, and I was--they were changing the
quality systems, so I was selected or asked by them by--if I would be interested
in doing this and coming back to Montreal for a training course, hence my entry
into Montreal. However, that went fine. It worked out well, I got--sitting at
the table with Edgar and, uh, I remember my first experience was answering him
and saying "Mister Bronfman." I didn't know what else to call him--[laughs]--and
he turns and he says, "My name's Edgar." And It was always Edgar after that. Um,
so the, uh, um-- I lost my train of thought a little bit here, but uh, the, um,
it was a great experience, learning the intricacies of whisky, uh, observing the
visits of Mister Sam and the activities of my then-boss, chief
00:05:00blender Roy Martin, and um, getting to be involved in the formulation. I
actually--eventually went upstairs and started to write the formulas myself, so
I was one--working with another guy and sending out the formulas to the plants
for dumping and blending--[laughs].
HAY: So what year was it then you were transferred from the West Coast to Montreal?
DAWE: 1955. February. Cold February.
HAY: And, um, so the, the British Columbia distillery was also a Seagram--
DAWE: Yes, of course.
HAY:--distillery. Right.
DAWE: Yup.
HAY: Um, and then, could you tell the story of arriving here with your wife and
what, two children?
DAWE: Yes. Um, we had to get on a bus at Dorval and, uh, to be transported
downtown, and uh, it was February, and Montreal is very cold and
00:06:00frosty in February and the windows of the bus were literally covered with frost,
and I thought for certain my wife was just going to say, "Uh, uh. Let's go
back." She was always my strongest supporter, so--
HAY: Yeah.
DAWE: Anyhow, we--[laughs]--
HAY: [laughs]
DAWE:--we made it and we got into a hotel downtown and, uh, of course, coming
from the West Coast of Canada, where it's much milder, and, uh, and my wife had
two young children in the, uh-- Two young boys in the hotel we were staying in
until we got relocated, and uh, the day was nice and bright and she thought she
would take them out and enjoy the sunshine and it was a very short-lived visit.
It was just too cold, on one of the windiest corners in Montreal.
HAY: I suppose the whole family got used to that--
DAWE: Oh yes, we did.
HAY:--eventually. Yeah, yeah. So, what was the distillery like in
00:07:001954, and your job at that point, what--DAWE: Uh, my job initially was to go
into the lab--laboratory--the blending lab with, um, other associates and, uh,
working under the direction of the chief blender at that time, Roy Martin, so--
HAY: And what facility was it? What was the facility at that point?
DAWE: It was at distilleries corporation--the LaSalle distillery, that's where
we were physically located, so--and, um, at that time, the, um, Mister Sam
irregularly came out to the lab at--he made a point of visiting labs throughout
the whole organization quite often, and he was checking his whiskies, and, uh,
VO [Seagram's Very Own] was starting to get bigger at that time um.
00:08:00And part of my job with Roy Martin was to observe the casing activities of
Mister Sam and, um, he always liked his, his sample to be neat, to start with,
and then once he nosed it and he probably tasted it a little bit, and he said,
"Water it." And so, that what happened. But, my job, primarily was to observe
and listen to what--a quarter of this percentage, and a quarter of that
percentage, he wanted--suggested to change, because he was not saying "change,"
he was talking to Roy and I would listen. So that's my first real introduction
into physical blending. [laughs]
HAY: Yeah. And, and he, yeah, and he--you talked about this in the other room,
but can you describe a little bit more about this art of blending and Mister
Sam's approach to it, and why was it, why was it novel at that point,
00:09:00or why was it ground-breaking, or why do we still talk about Mister Sam's blending?
DAWE: I don't think I would say--agree that it was novel at that time. I mean,
blending was... He was a blender and a distiller, of sorts all through his life,
and he was [a] very determined man, as I think we all know, and proud of his
products, and he wanted his blending department to be good too, so he conveyed
that message quite clearly.
HAY: So, it was really his, his demanding, how demanding he was--
DAWE: Oh yeah.
HAY:--which was the--how many years did you, uh, did you work under, under Sam Bronfman?
DAWE: Uh, I, I never really worked directly under Sam Bronfman. I mean, uh, Sam
was the president and, uh, I was just an underling at that time, but
00:10:00I worked in a regard, with him, until I was transferred in 1958 to a distillery
in Beaupré, Quebec, which is beyond Quebec City area, so it was a different
type of operation. There was no blending there, it was just production, but I
was gaining experience, so.
HAY: Were you still using your nose up there?
DAWE: Uh, yes, out of--because I was concerned with the type of products we were
producing. I wasn't officially in the lab, but I worked um, I went down, like
Mister Sam would. Get in the lab and see what your product's looking like.
You--you--your whisky's looking like it's all right and. So, it's good.
MAYVILLE: So, you went through a lot of changes in location throughout your
career, at least in the beginning?
DAWE: Yes, I was supposed to be, um, instead of going to Beaupré, I
00:11:00was supposed to be--well, I was on a five-year training area, which would
encompass distilling, bottling, maturing house, office--
MAYVILLE: Really all things.
DAWE: --and, uh, that lasted for a couple of years, and my boss at that time
called me down to his office and he said, "Like you to go to Beaupré." Well, at
those days, Beaupré was kind of backwoods and wasn't the most famous place to
go, but it was a distillery, and I said, "Sure, when do you want me to be
there?" and he said, "Go home, talk to Georgia, and"--my wife--"and get
a"--[coughs]--excuse me--"tell me Monday."
HAY: He didn't give you much time.
DAWE: Nope.
MAYVILLE: Two days.
DAWE: But he bought it. My wife took me in agreement, which she always was--
HAY: Right.
DAWE:--yeah. She was a----big supporter.
00:12:00
HAY: So, she was a big supporter of, of your career, and--traditional home,
raising the boys, while you were, um, expanding your career.
DAWE: That's right. Yup, she was. So, with, um, while I was at Beaupré, what,
two years, and uh, I got a call again from my boss, and he said, "How are you
going?" And this and that, and "I'd like you to be back in Montreal to take on
research." And I thought, "Oh, yikes." [laughs]
HAY: So, did you--was that good? Did you dread it, was it--
DAWE: Oh yeah, it was another step in my--
HAY:--yeah, and you were ready.
DAWE: I looked at it that way. Yeah. I don't think I was ready, totally--
HAY: Hmm.
DAWE:--because, you know, another move and find another place to live and,
uh--however--it was part of the development process that I was undergoing and, so.
HAY: You're ready for the challenge, and then your, and your wife, your wife,
was she excited to move back to Montreal?
00:13:00
DAWE: Um-hm. I think she perhaps would've been more excited to move back to
British Columbia, but that wasn't our route.
HAY: Because both of your families were [in] British Columbia, is that right?
DAWE: Yes, um-hm.
HAY: Okay.
DAWE: And, um, those days, it was--in, in our company, it was a lot of movement.
HAY: Yeah.
DAWE: And people were--who showed promise and that were moved and staff line,
staff line, so--gaining experience that way.
HAY: Yeah, can you des--what was Seagram like in the--can you describe the
Seagram Company at that, at that stage? So, you're in the fifties and in the
sixties; what was the Seagram Company like, what was happening?
DAWE: I would say that things were rather dormant. They weren't growing.
They were--things were being produced and, uh--I mentioned earlier
00:14:00about VO growing. It was starting to grow, but it wasn't really obvious at that
time, and, uh, there was, um, I, I think, with the presence of Edgar, there was
a little different vitality that came into the company, because he was very
capable, and, uh--
HAY: So, when did that transition occur and how did that affect you from Mister
Sam to Edgar?
DAWE: Um, that would be in the, um, '53--sorry, '56, '57, in there, something
like that.
HAY: So, did he step back?
DAWE: I think Edgar went to New York in '55.
HAY: So, did Mister Sam sort of step back from operations and--
DAWE: Ah, I wouldn't say--I don't think Mister Sam ever stepped back.
MAYVILLE: [laughs]
00:15:00
DAWE: I don't--I mean that very sincerely. He was, he was a--I won't say
difficult, he was never difficult. He was tough and, uh, he knew what he wanted,
so-- When you got to know him, he was a nice man to know.
HAY: Yeah. And you'd see him regularly when he'd come through the lab--
DAWE: Yeah.
HAY:--like every couple of--a few times a year. Right, you're--
DAWE: But you know, I, I was never, uh, pals with Mister Sam.
HAY: No. Right, you were taking notes diligently to make sure that you caught every--
DAWE: Yup, that's right, so.
HAY: Yeah. Um--
MAYVILLE: So, after becoming the master blender for Seagram, and, uh, working
there and developing products, consistency, quality... What's your proudest
achievement in that timeframe? Well, there could've be many, but what
00:16:00would you say is one of your proudest moment that you've, "Hey, that was really good."
DAWE: Um-hm. Uh, well that was 1963--
MAYVILLE: [laughs] You've got the date. He's got the date every time, perfect.
DAWE: When I was--became chief blender and the, uh--I think one of my proudest
achievements was a Cro--one of the Crown Royals, that the, uh--oh no, I've
forgotten the name of it. It was, but anyway, it was a switch. You may remember,
Drew, our pattern for Seagram whiskies were generally one-way and-
MAYVILLE: Right.
DAWE: --and the Adams Whiskey and something else--
MAYVILLE: Right. Right.
DAWE:--but, because I was so interested in the use of rye, I shifted.
MAYVILLE: Ah.
DAWE: And this particular brand, uh, it went well in Texas, and it's still doing
quite well. I don't, I haven't tasted it for a while but that's one
00:17:00of my proudest achievements.
MAYVILLE: Oh, okay.
DAWE: And the others that were minor in comparison. Some worked, some didn't.
HAY: And you mentioned that you had the idea of putting a single barrel product
out, but it didn't get any traction.
DAWE: No, it wasn't--it didn't fit in the, uh, those days.
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: So, who turned it down? Was it somebody above you, or--
DAWE: Um--
MAYVILLE: --or is it just outright, "No way we're trying this."
DAWE: --it wasn't really outright, it was just not ready for it--
MAYVILLE: Glossed over and then on to the next thing.
DAWE: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: So, it was all about making--
DAWE: Then it was a blender and so, you know, going straight as--
MAYVILLE: (??)
DAWE: --in the intuition--you know, the connection to straight whiskies
elsewhere, so... Anyhow, it didn't work, so--
MAYVILLE: So, like Canadian whisky. If you look at Canadian whisky,
00:18:00how did the history progress over time? In your years that you were there, from
when you started blending until you left, what do you see as a change, as a
change in taste profile, or age--any differences that you've seen through your career?
DAWE: Um, I think one of the major things I noticed that changed was the growth
of, continued growth of VO. And, uh, now, I don't take credit for that myself,
but at the time, um, the big competitor was CC [Canadian Club], and it was the
largest-selling Canadian whisky at that time, and then to see VO gradually creep
up and pass and surpass was an achievement of many people--
MAYVILLE: --You think that was more of a taste profile versus the competitor or
they pre-blend and we didn't?
00:19:00
DAWE: Um, I think that was part of it, Drew, um, the, uh, the market was
changing, and, um--but I don't think it changed... You know, the increase of VO
was a result of that change necessarily, but the--certainty, the whole market
was changing and, uh, I think the appeal was the answer. That people got used to
it, they liked it--
MAYVILLE: They enjoyed it.
DAWE: --they--yup, and it was consistent and that was one of the big things we
hit for all the time, was consistent quality.
MAYVILLE: Right. I know that--[laughs]--And the question that I would want to
ask you, like, forever, I'd be--I have to ask is, what do you see Canadian
whisky do in the future? Because it's easy to talk about the history
00:20:00and your part of it, but do you think there's a market in the future for
Canadian whisky and where's it going in the future?
DAWE: Oh, I definitely do. I, I think it's on the upswing, from what I see, and
by reading and listening, uh, so I think, yeah.
MAYVILLE: So, do you still keep in touch with where things are going--
DAWE: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: --ask questions?
DAWE: I--ask questions and--.
MAYVILLE: So, you're still interested?
DAWE: Oh yes, always will be.
MAYVILLE: Because you're vested, you have interest in this category.
DAWE: Yeah. Quite a few years, yeah.
MAYVILLE: [laughs] Yeah.
HAY: So, I understand that you hired Drew Mayville.
DAWE: Yes, I did.
HAY: And what is it that you--
DAWE: I, I didn't hire him directly, but I encouraged his move to Montreal.
MAYVILLE: Oh. Art's always been in the background, though.
DAWE: I found Drew. I found Drew.
DAWE: Yeah.
HAY: You found him?
DAWE: No. [laughs]
HAY: And tell us the story of that.
MAYVILLE: I was lost, I was lost.
HAY: Tell us the story of finding Drew.
DAWE: Um, those years when Drew was still working in the lab in
00:21:00Waterloo, uh, I used to conduct what we call product knowledge seminars for the
salespeople, marketing people and stuff like that, and of course, a big part of
my presentation was the setups that we required, and Drew became part of that,
uh--my visits to the distillery on business only. Yeah, I observed his skills
and I liked his approach to things, and, uh, yeah. Well--
MAYVILLE: Well, Art was--
DAWE: We could use somebody like him in Montreal, so.
MAYVILLE: Yeah, so he had me move to Montreal, which is--he's in the background,
always, but always reassuring and being the supporter he is, which--you know,
Seagram was always good for training, so Art was a big believer in that. So,
starting out the distillery, working quality in Montreal and materials.
So, just like himself, I did the same thing in different ways, and
00:22:00training was fabulous, and he was always there to support and I appreciate that.
DAWE: I like to encourage people--and to encourage them to bring forth their skills.
MAYVILLE: It, it reminds me a lot of the book that Sam wrote, about acorns.
HAY: From Little Acorns.
MAYVILLE: But you know, what you just described is exactly that--is that you
plant the seeds, and these people develop and nurture and mature and then you
end up with a full-matured oak tree, or a person that's ready to do what they
have to do.
DAWE: That's right. You have to plant those seeds--
MAYVILLE: You used to say that to me.
DAWE: --and you have to nurture them.
HAY: That's mentorship, you really are--were the role of a mentor, to Drew.
MAYVILLE: Oh, definitely.
DAWE: I guess. Yes, that's good--good point.
MAYVILLE: Definitely.
HAY: And then--and as you look at the history of whisky, it's a generational
thing, it is it's a, it's a craft, passed down--
00:23:00
DAWE: Um-hm.
HAY: --to each next generation.
DAWE: Yes.
MAYVILLE: So, one thing you can't pass down is the passion, and that's what I
think Art gave me, is that looking for great whiskies, the quality, all that,
you can't, you can't train people in that. It's the passion, and you have the passion.
DAWE: Yeah, that's a big part of it.
MAYVILLE: And you got it from your predecessors.
DAWE: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
MAYVILLE: So.
HAY: Where--yeah, where do you think--how did you pick up that passion?
DAWE: Oh, I picked it up from numerous people, uh, who were my bosses at one
time and then from Mister Sam himself, as I said earlier. You know, he was
really passionate about his products, and, uh, that was obvious--he cared for them.
MAYVILLE: Yeah. Yeah.
DAWE: So. And, um, I've had different bosses who have been instrumental in
motivating me in my career and then one particular guy was, uh, Jack
00:24:00Duffy, and he was--he was the one I was telling you about earlier, but,
uh--going--said, "I'd like you back in Montreal." after I'd been in Beaupré for
a while so that was the way he worked. He'd say, "Come back to Montreal."
[laughs] Yeah, so it's all kinds of people that had been--my old boss, and
initial boss in New Westminster, Bob Sutherland, was plant manager and, uh, I
think one of his parting words to me when he knew I was going East, was, uh, "Do
you really want to go down that rat race?"--[laughs]
MAYVILLE: [laughs]
HAY: [laughs]
DAWE: He, he, he was part of the development as well, he was a nice guy--
MAYVILLE: So it sounds like a lot of people influenced you in your career, like.
It's almost too many to name.
00:25:00
DAWE: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: Starting with Sam all the way through all your bosses through the
years, right?
DAWE: Yeah. And I had a lot of motivation from Edgar, and, um, yeah. In fact,
one time, I guess, uh, I could have end up in New York, it was down to a choice
of two, Russ or myself--Russ McLaughlin (??). So, he had to make a decision and
made the decision and it was not me, so.
HAY: So, so he went to New York and it was a new state here. What would that
have been like if you had gone to New York--DAWE: Well, he, he didn't go--
HAY: --how would that have--
DAWE: --he was already in New York, as the president of the company, so, uh--and
this other chap I'm talking about was the head of blending and quality in the
United States and international, so, which includes Scotland and South America--everywhere.
HAY: Is that something you wished had happened?
DAWE: Oh, I envisaged us living on 64th Street or something like
00:26:00that. My wife was ready to go--[laughs]--but, just as quickly, my then-boss, you
know, Griffin, called me up one day and said, "We've made this decision, and
it's not you."
HAY: Okay. There are other things in store for you here.
DAWE: Yup, so.
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: And not a bad fallback--
DAWE: No.
MAYVILLE:--where you were, right?
DAWE: No. No.
HAY: And was that at about the time that--was that in--what era was that, what decade--
DAWE: That would have been in, uh, um, the upper seventies, early eighties
somewhere. Eighties, I guess.
HAY: And then, when did you start, Drew?
MAYVILLE: '80. 1980.
HAY: '80? So that would have been about--
DAWE: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: That was in the lab, like him when he started, so--
HAY: Right, and he was at the top of his game--
MAYVILLE: That's right.
HAY:--as you were coming in at the lab.
MAYVILLE: That's it, that's it.
HAY: Yeah, in the lab, yep. We have the lab behind us, by the way, in this picture.
DAWE: Uh-huh.
HAY: If you point it out for the----for the record, that we are in the
00:27:00lab at the Old Montreal Distillery. It's going to change, though,
apparently--it's going to be revamped and redone, so it won't look like this.
Maybe when people are reviewing this interview, but, for now, I think it's an
appropriate setting. Um, I was going to ask you about, like, hot spots of whisky
around the world, and is Montreal really--why, or, why is, is Montreal and why
is Montreal sort of a--this epicenter, so to speak, of Canadian whisky?
DAWE: Um, I don't know, really how to give you an answer for that. I mean,
Montreal's--as we were talking earlier--was the financial capital of Canada, no
question about it. So, it was a place to operate from, uh, and out of. Um, the,
um, the----attractiveness of Montreal... I don't know what it was,
00:28:00other than that type of thing, and, uh, with the, um--with the company, it
traces history, a part of its history--not the Seagram history necessarily, but
the Bronfman history--back to Montreal.
HAY: Ah.
DAWE: And, um, in the earlier days.
HAY: Yes, what about those earlier days? We keep hearing rumors about those
earlier days of the Bronfman--
DAWE: Well, they've--
HAY:--do you know any of those stories? Obviously, you weren't there, but--
DAWE: No, I wasn't--[laughs].
HAY: But when you hear--did, would you hear those stories, and what do you, what
can you tell us about those earlier days--
DAWE: Um--
HAY: --if anything?
DAWE: I, I have to be limited in what I say, but, uh, it was all part of our
heritage, and um, that's the way I looked at it. And it was--they
00:29:00were exciting days, no doubt, but, uh, I, I, I can, um, recall showing Mister
Sam--I used to be the, not the collector, but the recipient of bottles that we
found here and there, everywhere, and they would, it would--that was before the
museum, and so they would come out and end up in the lab and, this one
particular day, after a tasting with him and Mel Griffin, and we were just
sitting, talking in my office. So, it was in his later years, and, uh, I had
this bottle in a can, like a oversized sardine can. And I thought, "Oh, let's
find out about that." So, I got enough nerve up to go and get it--I had to go to
my office and get it, and bring it back, and I just remember his
00:30:00words to this day, "Where in the hell did you get that?"
MAYVILLE: [laughs]
DAWE: Then he started to talk about it.
HAY: So, describe--
DAWE: These were in the earlier days.
HAY:--yeah, what was it? You're saying there was a bottle, desc--
DAWE: Yeah it was, um, not a fifth, but, um, a smaller one. A size down, yeah.
HAY: In a can.
DAWE: Yeah, it was.
HAY: As camouflage?
DAWE: Oh, I suppose in a way you could call it that. [laughs]
HAY: So, did he tell any stories about what, what that might have--when that
might have been distributed?
DAWE: Yes, he did, but to--I really don't feel I want, I want to get into the
details over that. I don't think that's my prerogative at this point, but--
HAY: Yeah. Yeah.
DAWE: --there was a purpose for it.
HAY: Wow. I can imagine.
DAWE: Yeah.
HAY: You--you set our imaginations awhir--[laughs]
DAWE: Sorry about that. [laughs]
HAY: That's all right. Um which, mean--while we're on the subject of
00:31:00those earlier days. I mean, Bronfman immigration story is quite amazing. The,
the family came from Russia--
DAWE: Yeah, Bessarabia, I think.
HAY: Yeah, and Jewish, and poor... Was that also part of the company lore, did
you all reflect back on that? You know, late eighteen hundreds, this family
coming, and--
DAWE: Um, I wouldn't think so. I--it may have been in some people's minds, but
never at the forefront.
HAY: Right.
DAWE: So it was the success of--
HAY: Yeah.
DAWE:--the family and Mister Sam, of course.
HAY: Yeah.
DAWE: --He had a big family, but, uh, he succeeded over a lot of them.
HAY: He was the larger-than-life character, wasn't he?
DAWE: Oh yeah.
HAY: Yeah. Um, and then when he--let's see, and he never really--he, did he die
in 19----do you remember?
00:32:00
DAWE: Um, '80, I want to say. I think it was around '80. I should remember,
because I, I remember his--sitting vigil at his funeral.
HAY: Oh, you went to the funeral.
DAWE: Was a part of that, yeah. So.
HAY: I've seen the pictures of that funeral--
DAWE: Um-hm.
HAY:--everybody on the planet flew in for that funeral.
DAWE: Yeah, it was a big funeral. We, were--the vigil, we were made up of
employees, like myself and, uh, we each had a, a shift to perform, but that was
a--that had to be in 80s somewhere, I just--
HAY: Yeah.
DAWE: --forget the exact date of his death.
HAY: Yeah, I bet that was--how did everybody feel about that, with the passing
of this larger-than-life character, and he was your work--
DAWE: Oh, yes with very great sadness.
00:33:00
HAY: Yeah.
DAWE: No question, for all of us. Not just--everybody.
HAY: Yeah.
DAWE: Really. He was a philanthropist--
HAY: Yeah.
DAWE:--he was, uh, active in the community and so forth.
HAY: Yeah. Um, back--
DAWE: One thing that I didn't mention earlier about, um, proudest moments, um,
was the fact that when he turned eighty, the, uh, Association of Canadian
Distillers wanted to honor him, and, um, and so one of their blending products
from each of the distillers--and at that time, I think there were a dozen or so,
were sent into our lab, and I had the responsibility of making blends for them.
So--[laughs]--I mean, there was no fooling with it. It was done in four
Florentine crystals that were delayed arriving and, you know, can
00:34:00imagine the concern with, "Are they going to be ready?" because there was, sort
of, the Association were going to have this party for Sam in, uh, Ottawa.
MAYVILLE: Was there a lot of bottles made?
DAWE: Four.
MAYVILLE: Four?
DAWE: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: And you have one?
DAWE: No. [laughs]
MAYVILLE: [laughs]
HAY: So they were four special blends--
DAWE: Crystal. They were four bottles of an industry blend that I referred to
as, as--
HAY: Wow.
DAWE: I still have the formula at home.
HAY: Oh, you do still have the formula? In your head?
DAWE: In my head, yes.
HAY: Are you the only person that would know that formula?
DAWE: Most likely.
HAY: Do you think we should--
MAYVILLE: No.
HAY:--write it down?
MAYVILLE: You could never replicate--
DAWE: No.
MAYVILLE: --at this point.
HAY: He would--.
DAWE: If it's a mixture of industries--
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
DAWE: --products, so it's--
HAY: Which, again, speaks to what you--we talked about earlier--the memory--what
you contain and what a blender contains in his head, the memory, the knowledge
of the--
DAWE: Yup.
HAY:--inventory, you know that's overwhelming to me.
00:35:00
DAWE: Um-hm.
HAY: Can you descr--
DAWE: But it becomes a--
HAY:--ibe that part of this?
DAWE:--natural thing when you're involved with it, and, uh, you're involved in
the planning. You don't want the, uh, accountants to do the planning in the
sense that, you know, save a buck here, a buck there. And you're involved in the
point of view, um--that these are the whiskies we're going to need to maintain
any degree of continuity that we want, and, uh, you know, like I mentioned
earlier, buckwheat certainly was not one of the outstanding ones. It was a
one-off [laughs] that didn't work.
MAYVILLE: An experiment that didn't work.
DAWE: Yup. It was Quebec buckwheat too. [laughs]
MAYVILLE: [laughs]
HAY Yeah.
DAWE: But it had a very distinct, strong flavour, if you know buckwheat.
HAY: Yeah, buckwheat pancakes are kind of just a bit too much too.
DAWE: Yeah, they--they're heavy-duty, aren't they? Yeah.
HAY: So, experimentation. So, you would always--you would experiment, um, and
Buckwheat is an example, but when you--when we're hearing about what Drew is
doing and what Sazerac and distilleries are now doing with these
00:36:00experiments of blending and trying different things... Do you--what do you think
about this kind of era of experimentation in Canadian whisky?
DAWE: I think things like, uh, single whisky, is a, a strong offshoot and a
positive one. Uh, the, um, I think that's the most major change I've seen,
shifting away from the blended styles. All--all the distillers were blenders in
that sense. There was no such thing as a straight whisky, in my day, certainly.
So, that, that's the major thing. And I think that they're growing, and they're
going to continue to grow. People have this image of a single whisky, and, uh,
the flavour, the, the taste and the nose all backs up what they're expecting.
It'll go.
HAY: Yeah.
DAWE: So.
HAY: Um, what do you think of this era of the sort of whisky--the
00:37:00popularity of whiskies now--obviously, many of us in this room right now are
from Kentucky, um, and we've watched bourbon just shwoom. And Drew has been
working in bourbon, um, what, you've watched the dips, the ebb and flow of
popularity of whisky--what do you feel about how it is right now, the popularity?
DAWE: Are you talking bourbon whiskeys--
HAY: Well, I guess I really--
DAWE: --specifically or generally in the whole industry?
HAY: I'm talking about maybe the whiskies that you, you know--the popularity of
brown spirits, which, for you, would be the Canadians and where-- I'm not asking
this question very well--[laughs]--I'm trying to get at the, um, brown spirits
are more popular now than they have been for a while--
DAWE: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: Well, you can actually relate that question back to Sam Bronfman
betting on the brown spirits to be the winner, right?
DAWE: Yup.
MAYVILLE: Because that was--he bet the company on it, basically.
DAWE: Um-hm.
MAYVILLE: And he he didn't foray into too much vodka, and they--a lot
00:38:00of people claim that was the downfall of Seagram, but, as it turns out now, that
whole category's exploding. Whether it be bourbon, even Canadian whiskies to
some extent. So, I'm not sure that if the question is, "What do you think of
that right now?" Is that explosion of the whisky category everywhere, across the
world, and it's--I always relay it back to Sam Bronfman who thought that's where
it should be.
DAWE: Yeah. He, um, he was never a strong bourbon man.
MAYVILLE: He wasn't?
DAWE: No. I think I'm quite correct in saying that. He was more a blended--
MAYVILLE: Really?
DAWE: --whisky man. Um, but to get back to the original question, you know, I
think there's a--certainly, bourbon has grown over the last, what, ten years? About?
MAYVILLE: Yeah, about ten years.
00:39:00
DAWE: And Canadian whisky is going right along, and I think this--the single
whiskies have been--.
MAYVILLE: Right.
DAWE: --a big chunk of this. Yeah, I really do. Uh, so it's, I think there,
there's positive hope there, very definitely, so.
MAYVILLE: So, how do you think he, he changed, he didn't change blending, but
elevated it to the next level, Mister Sam? Because--is it just that attention to
the detail, or is it, um, anything more specific, or is that really what it is?
DAWE: That, that was a key, of course, but, um, I don't know whether I would say
that he changed things, but his whole approach was that, you know, it, it--like
we talked about the, the orchestra, putting blend.
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
DAWE: --that some part of the whole blend is better than any individual.
Generally, any individual and sure, straight bourbon man and--or
00:40:00lady, excuse me--
HAY: [laughs]
DAWE:--but, you know, I, I think he had a vision of his blended whiskies. No question--
MAYVILLE: So, he basically perfected it?
DAWE: Yes. Yeah.
MAYVILLE: In a sense.
DAWE: And, uh, you know, we had three major whisky companies that Seagram and,
uh--Seagram itself, Adams and Calvert--and they all each had, had their distinct
characteristics, and we were able to manipulate--manipulate, that's not quite
the right word but organize it--and they were all different. There was no "me
too's" or anything else, so--
HAY: Right.
DAWE:--but I think he, in the background, he was the motivator--[laughs].
HAY: Yeah a solid mo--solid motivator.
DAWE: There were other, uh, other gentlemen in the early days of the whisky
business too, but it--you know, you look at Harry Hatch and, uh,
00:41:00Canadian Club and Walker, Beam, and stuff like that, so um, I think, I wouldn't
say that Mister Sam was a part of that club, but he was certainly the most
illustrious member of that club, in my opinion.
MAYVILLE: I'd just seen him as a visionary more, and he executed what he had in
his vision.
DAWE: Oh yeah, yeah.
MAYVILLE: Like, he did that to perfection. Uh, the only thing that people
critique him for over the years has been focusing so much on whisky and not
other types of products.
DAWE: Yes, yeah, that's true.
MAYVILLE: Let's see, vodka took off and we weren't that well-positioned in that
category, and--
DAWE: That's right, and then the--while we had vodkas--Seagram, that is--they
weren't big sellers, so.
MAYVILLE: Right.
DAWE: So, it's the same with white rum--
MAYVILLE: Right.
DAWE:--to a degree. So, it, uh--oh, I had the thought, I've just lost
00:42:00it, sorry. Go ahead.
HAY: Um, do you--were you retired, by the time, uh, Seagram was sold to Vivendi?
DAWE: Um...
HAY: And, if not, how did that affect you?
DAWE: Sadly. Very sadly. Um--
HAY: What was that like?
DAWE: I don't know, it was, like, losing an arm or something, or a leg, or your
mother, your father type of thing. Losing someone to--to death. It, um, hit a
lot of people, very hard, and, uh, sad to say it was not a happy sale, as it
turned out. So we got a whole segmentation of great whiskies that [laughs] are
all over the place.
MAYVILLE: All over.
00:43:00
HAY: Yeah. Because you'd been there--how many years had you been with the
company at that point? You had been a Seagram man.
DAWE: I think--that time was 2001--
MAYVILLE: Yup--
DAWE:--I believe--
MAYVILLE:--that's right.
DAWE:--and, um, so, I'd been there since 1949, so, a few years.
HAY: Wow. Right. Yeah. And it--right, it was part of your, part of your whole world.
DAWE: Oh, absolutely.
HAY: Yeah.
DAWE: And my family's world.
HAY: Exactly. Raised your children--
DAWE: I didn't raise them to drink or anything like that, but--
HAY:--no, but, I mean the, the company supported--
DAWE:--they were affected. Yeah.
HAY:--that was your--yeah. Um, yeah, so what happened next? I know Drew, you
went to Diageo--what happened to everybody? What happened to you?
DAWE: I was then retired. I was, by that time--
HAY: Got you.
DAWE:--retired, I think. It was '93? Yeah, '93 I retired.
HAY: Okay, got you.
DAWE: So, I was long gone, but others, uh, went different places. I
00:44:00mean, Drew was one of the ones that--they hit home, type of thing and.
MAYVILLE: And some went to Pernod, and some we--they didn't keep at all.
DAWE: No.
MAYVILLE: So there was a big, you know, resentment amongst a lot of people too.
DAWE: Um-hm.
MAYVILLE: Even to this day.
DAWE: Well, I'm sure there is. Yeah.
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
DAWE: So, it's, uh, it was not a happy ending.
HAY: Yeah.
DAWE: For many people.
HAY: It's interesting the way you tell that, because you'd been retired for
almost ten years, and yet it still hit you just as hard.
DAWE: Oh yeah, absolutely.
HAY: Be--yeah.
DAWE: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: Well, it's part of your life, like you said, for many, many years, and
your family's too, and people don't realize how much your family's part of your
work, in a sense. Especially--
DAWE: That's so true. Yeah.
MAYVILLE: --when you're moving them around on buses during the winter, and stuff.
HAY: [laughs]
DAWE: [laughs] They'll add a twist and, in our company was if your wife was
pregnant, you'll likely get moved.
HAY: Of course.
DAWE: Now, that happened more than once to many of us--[laughs]
00:45:00
HAY: And there aren't many companies that people--I mean, that doesn't happen
all that often, that people are with a company for such a long time.
DAWE: Certainly not today--
HAY: Not today.
DAWE: --I don't think.
HAY: More in your, more in your era than--
DAWE: Perhaps, yeah.
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: There was a loyalty--oh, you know--
DAWE: Oh, very definitely, yeah.
MAYVILLE:--as opposed to today, there's not as much.
DAWE: Hm, yeah.
MAYVILLE: Right?
DAWE: Yeah. It's--it's a little different today, I think.
MAYVILLE: Because you still have pride for the company, you can sense it even in
your--when you talk about it, which is amazing--and so do I--
DAWE: Yeah. Yeah.
MAYVILLE: --by the way, but you do have that loyalty that you don't get too
often these days. And I'm very fortunate to be with Sazerac, where I have that
loyalty, because they took a chance on me and it's been very positive for both
of us, so I have a loyalty there. So, it's the same feeling, that family. Like
it was with you with Sam Bronfman and the Bronfman family as--you knew them, you
knew the people who owned the company.
DAWE: Yes, yeah.
MAYVILLE: You worked with them.
MAYVILLE: And you developed that over years, that loyalty, and that's
00:46:00why it hit you hard when it was disbanded, right?
DAWE: Oh yeah, you become part of it. You're part of it.
MAYVILLE: You're part of it.
DAWE: You're really part of it, so, yeah.
MAYVILLE: Hm.
HAY: I'm getting near the end of my questions. I have, I do have a final one, I
don't know whether--Stephanie, do you have any questions as your--
UNKNOWN: No, I'm good. Nothing's coming to mind, you're doing a great interview.
HAY: Okay, thank you. I was going to ask, sort of, if there were--what, what do
you want others to remember you for in this industry, or, are there any stories
that you thought you might tell us that you'd like to tell us now?
DAWE: Hm. Oh, that's a tough question.
MAYVILLE: Yeah, they are tough.
DAWE: Yeah. I think I would like to be remembered as what I was, and
00:47:00well, don't put any, uh, fancy dressing on it. Just, I had a job to do, and I
did it. I liked what I was doing, and I was happy with the people I worked with,
and, and yeah, that's the primary thing. Um, I don't--the other part of your
question was.
HAY: Um, any other stories that were lurking in your, in your mind that you
didn't get to tell us that you would like to tell us, any other additional story
that you've thought of telling? Any, any little stories that you thought of
telling that we didn't think to ask?
DAWE: Hm, nothing comes immediately to mind, I'm sorry. I think we've covered
most of it.
MAYVILLE: But I'd just like to come back to that last question--the inspiration
this man has provided for countless people--he's so modest he won't say it, but
you can see the people who walk around here all respect him. Have you noticed that?
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: So the inspiration that he's given countless people--and
00:48:00this is just a small, little cross-section--is phenomenal, so I think that is
one of his biggest successes ever.
HAY: Yeah.
DAWE: Nice legacy to have.
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: Yeah.
DAWE: It really is. I'm proud of it
MAYVILLE: But he's too modest to say it. So I said it for you.
HAY: Yeah, seeing Gerry come up to him--
MAYVILLE: Every time--
HAY:--Jean-Denis [Boivin] come up to him.
MAYVILLE:--you see it so clearly, and he has countless people like that, so.
HAY: Oh, I do have another question.
MAYVILLE: Okay.
HAY: I always have another.
MAYVILLE: Yeah, I was going to say, "That's a good place to end."
HAY: No, one more thing. What did you think when you arrived here with Drew in
the winter? You--Drew and--you met Drew here, at the Old Montreal Distillery, in
March or April, right? You gave him a tour.
MAYVILLE: Oh. Yeah, yeah.
HAY: What--you came to see this, this distillery.
DAWE: Um-hm.
HAY: What did you think when you arrived here, and when Drew showed you around
and Drew talked to you about what was happening here, what were your impressions?
DAWE: Uh, they were very good, actually. Uh, I was li--I think the
00:49:00still was not on--
MAYVILLE: Wasn't it?
DAWE: --wasn't running-- Was it in?
MAYVILLE: No, it wasn't even running.
DAWE: Oh, that was a later visit.
MAYVILLE: Yeah, you went in several times.
DAWE: I saw it, and so--yeah, I felt quite proud for the people, quite happy,
because, um, you know, there's a good feeling--
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
DAWE: --in that. Very important. Yeah.
UNKNOWN: -----------(??)
MAYVILLE: That's good
HAY: I'm happy.
MAYVILLE: Okay.
HAY: [laughs]--Thank you very much for sitting for this interview, and for the
whole day, including the hour of the power outage for the whole sector of
Montreal that we endured--[laughs]
DAWE: It's been a pleasure.
HAY: That was a surprise. Thank you so much.
DAWE: Thank you.
UNKNOWN: Yay. (claps)
DAWE: [laughs]
MAYVILLE: Cut.
[End of interview.]
