00:00:00
KASARABADA: This is an oral history interview with Kim Franklin and Tamera
Franklin. (laughs) My name is Anu Kasarabada, and I am the archivist and oral
historian for the John G. Heyburn II Initiative for Excellence in the Federal
Judiciary at the University of Kentucky libraries. Kim, Tammy, thank you for
taking the time to sit down and talk with me. I really appreciate it.
FRANKLIN: Thank you.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Thank you.
KASARABADA: So, as we just talked about before the recording, we're gonna spend
most of this session just learning about what it was like to bring those federal
lawsuits and go all the way to the Supreme Court. But, in order to get there, I
really want to just learn about who you are as people and how you came to be the
people who went to the Supreme Court. Okay? So, I'm gonna start it off. Tammy,
why don't you get us started? Just tell me about yourself.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Well--
KASARABADA: --and I'll have you speak into the microphone--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --of course, I am in my middle fifties--(laughs)--and
00:01:00country girl, raised farmly around here, Simpsonville. I stay home now, retired,
and I'm married to Kim Franklin. We knew each other in school, and we have been
friends for a while, and we just followed each other here and there, but we've
worked in the same areas, worked for the same people. And that's about it on me, personally.
KASARABADA: So, you grew up in Cropper?
BOYD FRANKLIN: We actually grew up in Simps--I grew up in Simpsonville.
KASARABADA: Okay. So, what was that like? What was life like when you were
growing up?
BOYD FRANKLIN: It's simple, very simple. No stop sign. One little grocery store.
Everybody knew everybody. You know, we went to the little school in Simpsonville.
00:02:00My dad was a farmer. My mom worked in the--everybody worked, you know, hard. We
was hard raised.
KASARABADA: Did you have siblings? Do you have siblings?
BOYD FRANKLIN: I am an only child for my mother, but I have two half-brothers. So--
KASARABADA: --did you always want to stay here or--in Simpsonville, or did you
ever think about going beyond to, I don't know, Louisville, or Cincinnati, or
New York, or Detroit, or anywhere else?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Well, I'm not much of a city girl, but, you know, I do like--I
wouldn't, I wouldn't mind the islands, but, you know, that's, that's more of a
visiting thing. I don't think I'd really just want to stay there.
KASARABADA: Okay.
BOYD FRANKLIN: I like family. I like staying close to where I'm from and my
kids, and we have kids and grandkids, so--
KASARABADA: --okay--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we just like to plan it safe and simple.
KASARABADA: Okay. Kim, how about yourself?
FRANKLIN: I was raised on this side of the county, so, even though it's a small county,
00:03:00she was from one side. I was from the other. So, I was raised, for the most
part, around this side of the county, but my father--my mother and father were
divorced--my father lived in Simpsonville, so I kind of--back and forth, you
know, on both sides of the county, but same thing. Was raised, you know, in a
small town. We rode horses. They--dairy farms. That's all we ever knew. And,
again, went to school together. I'm a year older than her. Knew each other
briefly in school, but, like I said, from different sides of the county, but you
still know each other. It's a small town.
BOYD FRANKLIN: She worked for my mom.
FRANKLIN: (laughs) Yeah, I worked for her mom for a while. And, you know, we
just knew each other through the years and had kinda went our separate ways, and
then ended up back--runnin' back into each other. And, you know, it's been said,
there's stories written, that it was a love story two decades in the making, and
it really was. Ours really was. It was one of
00:04:00those where, you know, there were certain songs throughout the years that would
make me think of her, but, you know, we were both girls. We were in a small town.
BOYD FRANKLIN: In the countryside you--
FRANKLIN: --it was just never gonna be--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --wasn't so--
FRANKLIN: --but--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --easy to--
FRANKLIN: --(coughs)--yeah--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --play on the gay side in the country.
FRANKLIN: But, when I would see her or we'd see each other, you know, there was
always that connection. There was--you know, when we'd look at each other, it
was always something there. And, when, actually, we come back and met back up, I
went into where she worked. You know, it was a small store in Shelbyville, and
I'd just made up my mind. This is it. I'm just gonna tell her how I feel. If she
smacks me, she smacks me, but I'm just gonna tell her how I feel.
So--(laughs)--I'd made up my mind. I pulled in there, and--you know, we had
talked just a few days prior to that, just me goin' in there to get something to
drink or whatever, and said, "This is the day. I'm gonna do it." So, when I
walked in the store, she handed me a note, and I thought, okay, I better read this
00:05:00first. (all laugh) So, I read the note, and it gave me hope that--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah, I was already thinkin'--
FRANKLIN: --I was on to somethin'.
BOYD FRANKLIN: --that way, and here, she come in to approach me about it, and
I'd already had things in the letter saying I'm so interested. And I'm trying to
come out, and now, knowing who you were, because Kim's always been gay. You know
what I'm sayin'? I've always been gay, but I didn't come out.
KASARABADA: Okay.
BOYD FRANKLIN: But I knew she would be a friend to come out to, and I had
interest to come out to. So, that's why I was like, I'm just gonna tell her the
same way she's thinkin' of me because she is gay. She has experienced the gay
life, and coming out, and being out, and I knew that, so that was my chance to
say, "Here you are, the person I want to be with, but you're also gay, and you
can help me.
00:06:00So, that's--from that letter is--
KASARABADA: --so, Tammy, are you saying that--is she--is Kim the reason how--or
how you discovered that you were gay, or did you know before--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --I knew--
KASARABADA: --that you were kind of working up to that?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Honestly, I knew it when I was around twelve.
KASARABADA: Okay.
BOYD FRANKLIN: But I was the very shy, obedient child, and my--I was the very
obedient child to family, to my parents, and the way of life here. So, I was so
scared to even think of coming out, but my mind was always--because she was out,
I wanted that because I knew I was deep down. And I wanted to at least talk to
her to talk to her about coming out, but I was also so interested.
KASARABADA: You knew you were
00:07:00attracted to her.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Oh, yeah. Oh, it just showed all the time. (laughs) Any time we
looked at each other, it was that--you had to look away. And we worked in the
same place in different departments, and that's where my mom was her boss. So,
when I went to see my mom or do something, I would see her, and I'd be all
silly-looking, and I'd have to go back to the other department 'cause I
couldn't--you know--(laughs)--I couldn't admit that it was my--I knew my mother
would see it on my face. And so, I wasn't ready for that yet, so--
KASARABADA: --so, you had never dated women, or been romantically involved--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --no--
KASARABADA: --or had a relationship--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --no--
KASARABADA: --or anything like that?
BOYD FRANKLIN: No. Never came out until her.
KASARABADA: Wow. So, Kim, as Tammy said, you had lived as openly gay, it sounds like.
FRANKLIN: Right.
KASARABADA: And so, how did that come to be? I mean, how did--where did that
come from, that you could--you felt you could live openly?
FRANKLIN:
00:08:00I actually came out in the '90s, before it was even--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --cool--(laughs)--
FRANKLIN: --cool in this area. And, I mean, like she said, I always knew I was
gay. It wasn't even a secret within my family. It was one of those things that
my family supported me. We didn't talk about it up until the '90s, and this was
after we got out of high school, but my family always knew. So, when I came out,
it wasn't a huge shock to anybody. They, they didn't--I won't say they struggled
with it, but they didn't understand it, and, you know, I had a conversation with
my mom, and I said, "You don't have to understand it. I don't understand why I'm
gay, but I know I am, and I'm still the same person." So, we had those
conversations about how I can't explain it to you. I just know what I feel. And
my family was okay with it. It--you know, it was different because small town,
00:09:00I was the first gay person anybody in my family knew. But I decided I wasn't
gonna live a lie. There's a Whitney Houston song, you know, about be your own
person, and I decided long ago to live as I believe, and that was, like, my
theme song, you know? And I just decided I was gonna live my life, and, if I
never was ever with anybody, that was okay, but I was gonna be true to myself.
And we actually, back in the late--(laughs)--'80s, Jell-O wrestled. (all laugh)
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: So--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --each other--
FRANKLIN: --yes--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --in a competition.
FRANKLIN: Yeah.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: So, that's--
KASARABADA: --here, in tow--in Simpso--(laughs)--
FRANKLIN: --in Shelbyville, yes.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
FRANKLIN: So, that's how we got to talkin' back again, years later, is I went
into where she worked, and she asked me about it 'cause I had the newspaper
article. I had saved it all these years. It was--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --a picture of me and her.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Laminated.
FRANKLIN: I'd saved it all these years. So, she asked me, did
00:10:00I still have it, or did I have it? And I was like, "Yeah." So, I made her a copy
and laminated, brought it to the store. So, that's what kinda got us talking.
That was from '87 to 2007.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
FRANKLIN: So, that many years.
KASARABADA: Wow. Wow.
FRANKLIN: So, it really was two decades in the making. And then, it just kinda
want quickly from there that, once we started talking, we--neither one of us was
willin' to lose each other again. You know, we knew that we'd been lookin' at
each other and thinkin' about each other for twenty years. We weren't willin' to
go the next twenty without at least seein' where it went. So--
KASARABADA: --now, you each felt the sparks on your end--
FRANKLIN: --oh, always.
KASARABADA: Tammy, you couldn't hardly look at her--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --eyes--
KASARABADA: --without needing to look away.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
KASARABADA: And it sounds like it was much the same for you. And so, did
you--but you'd never talked about it beforehand. What was that first
conversation like? And I'm asking a really intimate question here.
00:11:00What was it like to admit what you were feeling for each other?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Well, like we said, since she had already come out, all that of
yourself has already come out with her. So, with me, I was, I was just bursting
to get out the feeling, get out who I was, get out why I knew I was. You were
proof that I knew I was, so you were proof that I was right, you know? I had
been married before. Like I say, my childhood was a little different. I, I left
early in life, and I, I married to simplify myself and to satisfy others. And--
KASARABADA: --tell me, tell me more about that. What do you mean by simplify yourself?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Well, to not really be who I am
00:12:00and just go on with it.
KASARABADA: Do--to do the things--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --to do what is--
KASARABADA: --that are expected of a woman to do--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --expected as a obedient child and--
KASARABADA: --okay--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --a country girl. The non-liberals that are usually associated in
small towns, and, not to upset, not to bring forth questions 'cause I'm really
just trying my own self out, you know? Knowing I was, but I still, I still had
to be--like, I need to make sure. So, I married quickly, and I think I did it
because I didn't even--it wasn't even about the person. I married because I was
supposed to, and have kids, and do all the family things that you're supposed to
do, and each time--you know, I married three times. Still in that same click,
trying to figure it out, you know? Sayin', "Well, this
one--this--(laughs)--ain't it." Or,
00:13:00"Well, maybe it's person." You know, am I supposed to keep trying? Am I supposed
to go for, really, what I should be going for? Try it again. Just--it just
definitely wasn't it, and I think I abused myself to try to find that one
specific thing, knowing that I had to come out. (laughs)
FRANKLIN:(whispering) I got you baby.
KASARABADA: So, I'm gonna go back to the question. So, you know, you handed her
the letter.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
KASARABADA: Kim, do you remember what that letter said?
FRANKLIN: I, I don't remember exactly. I still have it. We kept it. I don't
remember exactly what it said, but, basically, it said, you know, that she
wanted--she had something she needed to talk to me about. She'd been thinkin'
about it for a long time. She had some emotional connection that, you know, we
needed to talk about or she wanted to talk about. And, when we had that
conversation--(all laugh)--she's--you know, we're in a vehicle, and we're just
sittin', talkin',
00:14:00and she's sayin', you know, she has feelings, and she was sayin', "Someone like
you." And I was like, "Well, you know, there ain't too many like me," and I'm
just naive. You know, just--
KASARABADA: --you did not know what she was trying to get at--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --no. (laughs)
FRANKLIN: I did--not at all. Even though--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --she didn't get it--
FRANKLIN: --I was giddy because I had feelings for her, I was naive, and I was
just like, "Well, you know, there ain't too many like me," you know, and, and
I'm tryin' to see because I--I didn't want to influence her and mess up her
life. You know what I'm sayin'? If she just didn't know what she wanted. So, I
kinda had that in the back of my head too, and she just kept sayin, "No, like
you." And I was like, "Oh, you mean like me, like me-me." And she's like,
"Yeah," and I'm like, "Oh, okay." (all laugh) So, it--then, the conversation
kind of changed. So, then, I'm--course, I'm, you know, embarrassed. Not
embarrassed, but shy and bashful, and I'm like--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --blushing--
FRANKLIN: --oh, okay. So, now,
00:15:00in the back of my mind, I'm thinkin', okay, this took a turn quick. (laughs) So,
then, I'm like, "Okay, well, so, let's talk some more. You know, let's, let's,
let's talk again." And, when I--when we ended that conversation and parted ways,
you know, my heart was exploding 'cause I'm like, oh, my God. This is what I've
always wanted too, and, you know, did I look silly? You know, how did I come
across in my response to her? But that was--that part of the conversation--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and then the courtship just started--
FRANKLIN: --and we just knew from there--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --immediately too. Let me pick out the song. Let me get that song
so she'll hear it. Let me dress up. Let me put more makeup on today. Let me try
to look cute. Let me--'cause I might well run into her. I hope she'll come by
the store. And it just rolled all the way to where we are on that part.
KASARABADA: So, it sounds like, you know, for all that--you know,
00:16:00this is your first relationship with a woman.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
KASARABADA: You knew that this was the relationship.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Oh, yeah. As soon as it became a relationship, I was all in. Not
a look back, never a thought of going anyplace backwards, totally into
everything, and, oh, my--I could not get enough in it. I could not get enough
talking, laughing, crying, speaking, sexual, to everything you could possibly
think of in a relationship. That's--we were on it.
KASARABADA: Well, you had been the obedient child--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
KASARABADA: --the good girl who got married, who had the kids. And so, what was
their response when you--?
BOYD FRANKLIN: --that was the other amazing thing, and Kim can tell you.
KASARABADA: Okay, Kim.
BOYD FRANKLIN: So, you know, of course, my family
00:17:00knew, but we had a conversation with her kids. You know, they were--
KASARABADA: --together--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
FRANKLIN: --different ages. But, before we got into a relationship, we had a
conversation with her children because
KASARABADA: --how old were they at the time?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Let me think. Sam was--
FRANKLIN: --thirteen or something--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --thirteen. Tabitha was eleven. No, Tabitha was ten, and Kaye was
six years older. Then--
FRANKLIN: --so--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --thirteen, so.
FRANKLIN: Nineteen.
KASARABADA: Teenagers?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Oh, yeah.
FRANKLIN: So, we had a conversation with them, and, you know, they were fine.
They were like, "As long as mom's happy." But we let them spend at least some
time with me around without any, you know, connection or anything like that,
just to let them get to know me for me.
BOYD FRANKLIN: But also see how I reacted--
FRANKLIN: --yeah--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and that's--they picked up on that immediately.
FRANKLIN: And, once they seen how happy she was, then it was like, "That's fine.
We don't--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah, Sam was like--
FRANKLIN: --have a problem with that"--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --"I already knew, mom."
FRANKLIN:
00:18:00You know, so--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --I'm like, "No, you didn't." (laughs)--
FRANKLIN: So, then, when we decided to get married, we had to go to Connecticut
'cause it wasn't legal here. We couldn't do it here. So, I told her--I was like,
"I want to have a conversation with your father."
BOYD FRANKLIN: And, mind you, my father's a Native American, old-school farmer,
so we knew that was gonna be a toughie. (all laugh)
KASARABADA: Did they--did he know that you were in a relationship? Had you had
some version of the conversation you had with your children with him?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Well, Dad was the type where you came to him, and, anything you
had to say, you had to be there with him.
KASARABADA: Okay.
BOYD FRANKLIN: He wanted to see you, touch you, feel you. It's who he was. And I
would bring her as a friend 'cause that is what it was, and I wanted him to see
how I looked and felt because he knew me like no other. And I'd bring him
around--bring Kim around, and,
00:19:00you know, we'd just--'cause my dad, we fished and did all the country stuff, you
know, and--
KASARABADA: --you were very close to him--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --very close. And so, he's a observer, so he, he did, didn't he?
He observed it quickly, and he even said, you know, "Y'all just might as well go
on and tell me." So--
FRANKLIN: (laughs) --and he--when--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --Kim--
FRANKLIN: --we were gonna go get married, I had that conversation with him
separately, and he broke down, and he cried, and I'm thinkin', okay, where is
this goin'? And he said--because, by that time, we were livin' together. And he
broke down, and he cried, and he said, "I would much rather see you marry than
livin' in sin." In his world, by not bein' married, we were livin' in sin--
KASARABADA: --yes--
FRANKLIN: --but I started the conversation out saying, you know, "You understand
we're together, right?" And he said, "Yes, I know." And I said, "How do you feel
about that?" And he said, "I've never seen my
00:20:00daughter happier. As long as you make her happy." So, then, I went on to say,
"Okay, well, you know, there--we can't here, but there are some states that we
can get married." And he wasn't even real sure about that. You know, he didn't
know how it worked. And so, I kind of explained that to him, and I said, "I
would like to have your blessing to get married." And he--it's when he broke
down, and he said, "I would much rather you all be married than see you livin'
in sin." In his mind, we were livin' in sin. It wasn't about being two women. It
was about not bein' married. So, he--they were always supportive. You know--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --he was supportive, and her step-mother. They were supportive. My
family was supportive--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --because, you know, they saw what kind of positive influence she had
on me. So, our families, at that point, were, then, supportive, and, you know,
it just kinda went from there, and that's--then, when the case came up, and, you
know, we can talk about that in more detail whenever you're ready,
00:21:00but that's when we came to be where we were.
KASARABADA: You said that your family was--could see the positive influence that
she had on you. Can you talk about that? What positive influence is that?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah, talk about, you know--'cause you are gay, and you were in
relationships, still wasn't that one.
FRANKLIN: Yeah, I'll--where I had been out since the '90s, and I had been in
relationships, but it was never the right one, and my family knew that. You
know, my family knew that I was just gettin' by. I was just, you know, doin' the
best I could with my relationships, but it was never the right one. And, you
know, I would be with people that would not want my family around or not want me
to go spend time with my family. That just wasn't my person, and my family knew
that, but, you know, that they still were supportive of me, but they knew I
wasn't happy, and they knew that that wasn't my person. It's just who I was with
at that moment. So,
00:22:00when, you know, that all changed, and I met her, then, it was just like the, you
know, the--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --our families collided. They really did. (laughs)
FRANKLIN: The clouds separated, and the--you know, the sun came out, and--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --the Christmas presents were written to each family. You know
the kids--
FRANKLIN: --it just--
KASARABADA: --so, the families meshed too--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --oh--
FRANKLIN: --immediately--
KASARABADA: --there was no--
FRANKLIN: --immediately.
KASARABADA: Well, they'd all known each other in one way or another, right? Or
known of each other?
FRANKLIN: Somewhat. Known of each other. Not--they didn't know each other
personally, but--
KASARABADA: --okay--
FRANKLIN: --again, it's a small town--
KASARABADA: --right--
FRANKLIN: --a small county. But the--our families both played off us. When they
saw her happy, her family knew that it was okay. When my family saw me happy,
they knew--you know, I'd been in past relationships with women, but this one was
different. My family knew immediately. This one was different. This was my
person. So, the support was just there from early on, and it was strong support
because our
00:23:00families could tell. Our families knew what we'd been through. Her separate from
me, but still, we'd had our own paths, and now, they had come together. So--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and we--you know, we do stuff together. I fix her mom's hair
every Saturday, you know? I'd--she's eighty-four--
FRANKLIN: --three, four--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --eighty-three, and she's the coolest eighty-three-year-old you
could ever meet, you know? And I go and fix her hair. Tammy's gotta fix her
hair, and I get recipes from her. I mean, we just--we intertwined, and that's
the way it is.
KASARABADA: That's the ideal.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
KASARABADA: That's what you hope for.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah. That's what you want, yes.
FRANKLIN: Just a normal couple.
KASARABADA: So, Kim, were you the one who proposed?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes. I, I got her son--he's--he was still at home, and, you know,
I went in and talked to him and said--
FRANKLIN: --our son--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --our--(laughs)--son. Said, "Hey, here's what I wanna do. Will
you help me?" And, course, he was excited. So, he walk--our family wasn't gonna
be able to be there
00:24:00in Connecticut when we got married. So, he went and got her and walked her
outside to me. Like, instead of walkin' her down the aisle, he walked her to me
to propose. So, we tried to make our families as much a part of it as we could,
and, you know, we did it at home as far as the proposal, but he had to be a part
of it. There was no other way. He was gonna be a part of it. So, you know, I had
him bring her to me. And then, when we renewed our vows, of course, here--after
everything was ruled, the ruling, and we were successful, we renewed our vows so
that we could have our family--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --there, and, of course, then, he walked her to me. But, yes, we had
him walk her to me.
KASARABADA: That's beautiful. Tammy, did you know when she was gonna propose?
BOYD FRANKLIN: No.
KASARABADA: Did you know how--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --I didn't know how--
KASARABADA: --it was gonna happen?
BOYD FRANKLIN: I know how she is, so I knew it was comin', but I--with her
00:25:00imagination, I couldn't imagine what she would have done, and, you know, they
always--(whispering noise)--you know, her and Sam. And I was just ready for
anything, and it was sweet, and she got sand and put it out in the front yard
like the beach, and had her little khakis on, and her little--(laughs)--you
know. And Sam--I could tell somethin' was up 'cause my Sam--my son, our son, is
usually easy, laid-back, coolest kid you can imagine, but he was, like--you
know, and you knew he had somethin' on his mind, and--(laughs)--I was like,
there's no tellin', so we're just gonna go with it. And he's like, "Mom, come
here." You know, "Mom, come here. I gotta come in and to talk to you. I got to
talk to you real quick." "Real quick? What do you mean?" "Just real quick. I
have to--do you mind coming on out?" (laughs) You know, so, it took a minute.
And then, when I seen it, he was just so excited. That little face lit up 'cause
he was so excited to do it for Kim, so.
KASARABADA: It's wonderful how you made him a part of that.
BOYD FRANKLIN:
00:26:00Oh, yeah. And the girls, of course, they're parts of it. The girls are girls.
They got their own thing goin' on. They were teenagers. My daughter was a young
mom. We have five grandbaby girls.
KASARABADA: Wow.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah. Girls.
KASARABADA: Congratulations. (all laugh)
FRANKLIN: All girls.
KASARABADA: Five girls.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Love the girls, but, yeah. (laughs) So, everybody was a part of
everything, but Sam lived at home, so.
KASARABADA: So, you went to Connecticut.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
KASARABADA: And what was that like? What was the ceremony like?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Well, that's the other thing. You had to--I had to plan it from
there to here on a computer the best I could, get it all lined up, flowers,
Justice of the Peace, get it all together, get my dress. And we drove in a Jeep
for ten hours--
KASARABADA: --you drove there--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --to get--yeah.
FRANKLIN: We drove.
BOYD FRANKLIN: To Connecticut.
FRANKLIN: And it stormed the whole way.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah. The Jeep flooded with water to our
00:27:00feet. You know, it's like a real Jeep, so it's gonna hold water, so we're
drivin' down the interstate.
FRANKLIN: Feet wet.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Feet wet.
FRANKLIN: Didn't care. (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: Playin' in the puddle.
FRANKLIN: Didn't care.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Gettin' to Connecticut, and we drove straight there. We didn't
stop. We didn't mess around. We just--we got there, and the next day or two, we
got a hotel where we could relax a bit and get ready for it. I'd already
messed--messaged the Justice of the Peace, who was Mary Pugh, who was so liberal
and so excited for us and to be the first one that could marry us, you know,
like that. And it went from there to--I went into a--it was a park, but it was
at the beach. The park was behind us, and we had the flower guy set up the
awning and the--all the flowers, and it was beautiful. I had tulle blowin' in the
00:28:00breeze of the beach, and we did it at sunset.
KASARABADA: Wow.
BOYD FRANKLIN: So--and I--
KASARABADA: --that sounds beautiful--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and then, I had the little cassette playin' our favorite songs.
But it's so us because it should have been so foo-foo, but the record player got
stuck on Hel--Helen Murray--
FRANKLIN: --Anne Murray--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --Anne Murray singin' the--(laughs)--same old song the whole time.
FRANKLIN: "Could I Have This Dance."
BOYD FRANKLIN: It played the--(all laugh)--whole time. So--(laughs)--and nobody
could figure it out, and we were tryin' to stand over here, smiling, and, oh,
okay, we'll just keep bein' us, you know. And people were gathering around the
beach, you know, while we were doing our vows, and I had to be in a park
bathroom to get ready by myself, and get my dress on, and get it zipped up.
KASARABADA: Was it a full wedding dress?
BOYD FRANKLIN: It was a big, flowy beach--(laughs)--wedding dress. So, I had to
get a hanger, and
00:29:00get it--(laughs)--locked in, and get it over my head, and pull it straight up,
and all my stuff was in this bathroom, and people were comin' in and out, and
they were like, "Oh, are you gettin' married?" "Yes, I'm gettin' married."
Barefooted, and I had forgot somethin' in the Jeep, so I had to grab my dress
and run across the golf course to get to the Jeep with my dress. It was so
wonderful, but it's so crazy. I mean, people were lookin'. I was runnin' across
the golf cart--golf course. Carts were goin' by me. They were wavin'. And then,
it was time to be on the little pier to walk out to the--to meet here, and there
she stood, waitin' for me. It was just beautiful. We did a Native American
ceremony with it, and did a butterfly thing, and we had written our vows to the
tee, and it was simply beautiful, and right at the sundown.
KASARABADA:
00:30:00Oh, it sounds lovely.
BOYD FRANKLIN: It was. It really was. But it was, it was a journey, day or two.
KASARABADA: Well, you know, I mean, the only thing you could hope for in those
moments is that all the stress of the day, all the thing--hassles and the things
that didn't go right, they just melt away--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah, but they--
KASARABADA: --when you have that moment--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --also was--it--Kimmy calls every little cuthundrum--what is it
called? Confund--condundrum? Kimmy cute.
FRANKLIN: Yeah.
BOYD FRANKLIN: So, there were so many Kimmy cute moments that. (laughs)
FRANKLIN: But, now, when we first got together, one of the things I told her was
I'll never promise you a rose garden, but I promise you it'll be an adventure. (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: And we did. We had one.
KASARABADA: It was certainly that. (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
FRANKLIN: It's been that every day. (all laugh)
KASARABADA: So, this is 2010. You get married. You come home. And what's life
like after you come home--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --wow--
KASARABADA: --as a married couple?
BOYD FRANKLIN: You can start that one, Kim.
KASARABADA: Kim.
FRANKLIN: (laughs)
00:31:00For the most part, we didn't have a lot of trouble because, you know, where I
was from one side of the county, she was from the other side of the county. Most
people knew our families. Most people knew us. We didn't have a lot of trouble.
There were a few people. She had some trouble, I think, on social media. I don't
do social media. So, you know, if anybody had any issue with me, they had to
come to me, and that makes a little bit of a difference. But she had some issues
on social media, but it was one of those things for us that it was like we're
gonna get through this. And, you know, we'd been called worse by better people.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah. (laughs)
FRANKLIN: So, don't come at us like that, you know? Don't take our kindness for
weakness, and you're not gonna drag us down, you know? So, even the issues on
social media that she had, you know, she can take care of herself and defend herself
00:32:00pretty well on social media or otherwise. So, when we had those issues, we just
kinda dealt with 'em as they came along, whether it be a conversation with
people or ignorin' them. Whatever was the best way for us. And we get to choose
that. You know, if you come at us because you have a problem, it's your problem.
I get to choose how I deal with it. We chose how we dealt with people that had
an issue with us 'cause it was their issue. We get to choose. So, that's how we
handled it, and we just went about our live still the same as we always did. We
held our heads up. We're not gonna run and be ashamed of who we are.
BOYD FRANKLIN: We had jobs. We had--we paid taxes. We did every single thing
besides one that you do. You know, so, we were never under you or above you.
00:33:00We were who we were, and we wasn't gonna take nothing from nobody. Just, we
wasn't. Just like I fight for my children, I would fight for her.
KASARABADA: At what point did being part of a federal lawsuit to enforce that in
a legal way come into your minds?
FRANKLIN: We kept up with the Windsor case.
KASARABADA: Okay.
FRANKLIN: And we had an attorney, Shannon Fauver, that was helpin' us with some
other matters, and we would discuss it, you know, as we were waiting, you know,
through that case and waiting for that case to be decided. And, you know, we
would talk about it among ourselves, and then we would talk about it with
Shannon, of, "Wonder what's gonna happen with Windsor." You know, but we watched
it because it was an important case.
BOYD FRANKLIN: She also became a good friend, so we did--
KASARABADA: --so, first, she started as your--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --speak to her a lot--
KASARABADA: --attorney.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
FRANKLIN: Right, and then--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --personal matter--
KASARABADA:
00:34:00 --okay.
FRANKLIN: And then, we became close because she's a wonderful person and a
wonderful attorney. So, as--within minutes of the Windsor decision came down,
Shannon called us. And, because we had talked about what if--you know, "Hey,
what if?" You know, Shannon called us, and she said, "Hey, you want to file for
marriage? A marriage equality suit?" And we're like, "Well, let us talk about
it," 'cause it was, like, in the middle of the afternoon or something. And we're
like, "Well, let us talk about it tonight, and we'll get back to you." So, we
talked about it because, like I said, I was more out, had been out for years.
Still had kids in school, so we had to consider that, and kids that do things,
you know, out, public events and things like that. So, we discussed it, and
we're like, "Well, we don't know what's gonna be, how it's gonna be, but do you
want to go for it?" And we're like--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --let's do it--
FRANKLIN: --"let's go for it." So, we called Shannon that night
00:35:00and said, "We're in."
KASARABADA: Did you have any hesitations--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --no--
KASARABADA: --Tammy?
BOYD FRANKLIN: I couldn't get to Shannon fast enough to tell Kim, "Go. Tell her.
Talk to her. Do it now. Let's go. Let's--this is our chance to be." And, like
Kim always says, for the ones behind us, you know, that are gonna come behind
us, they need the same thing as we do. So.
KASARABADA: And I imagine, having kids, it was important for you to also show
them stand--how to stand up for your rights, and--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and our kids are like that. So, yes, they are definitely--I
mean, Sam, "Do it, Mom. You need to do it. You need to do it now." So, it--and
he was young, even, and he's like, "Doesn't matter about anybody else. This is
y'all's life, and you can change so many." So--
FRANKLIN: --and we had a
00:36:00situation with Sam when he was gettin' ready to graduate. There was a student.
They had gathered them in the--I guess the gym.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Auditorium.
FRANKLIN: Auditorium. And there was a young boy that was gay, and one of the
teachers was makin' comments, makin' this boy uncomfortable. Sam stood up and
said something, and, course, the teacher sent him to the principal's office or
what have you, and it blew up into this big ordeal that they weren't gonna let
him graduate. Well, first, they weren't gonna let him take his finals.
BOYD FRANKLIN: 'Cause he talked back and--
FRANKLIN: --yes--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --was disorderly.
FRANKLIN: So, then, it was--they weren't gonna let him take his finals, which,
without that grade, he may not have passed and graduated. So, then, it was like,
okay, well, you're not gonna get to take your finals. And she called me, and
00:37:00I was like, "Okay, you want me to go up there and talk to him?" And she's like,
"Well, you know, yes." So, I went up there, and I picked Sam up that day from
school to see what was goin' on, and they told him to come back the next day,
and they would talk about it. So, before I got up there to get him completely,
they went on and let him take his finals, but they didn't know whether or not
they were gonna even grade 'em or recognize 'em. So, we got him. We talked about
it that night. He's like, "No, I don't care. I don't care what happens. I did
the right thing." And, you know, we were supportive of him, and we said, "Look,
Sam. You don't have to do this for our sake. You don't have to do this. It could
mess up your graduating." And he was like, "No, I'm--they did wrong. They were
wrong. I'm gonna tell 'em they were wrong." So, I called the principal and said,
"We need to set up a meeting." So, we set up a meeting with the principal, and I
think the assistant principal, and that teacher, and we went back to the school,
Sam and I. And,
00:38:00you know, I walked in. I introduced myself. I said, "Do you know who I am?" They
said, "We know who you are." Said, "Okay." So, we sat down, and I said, "I'm
here for Sam." I said, "This is all him. However he wants to handle this is how
we're gonna handle it, but I'm here for him." But, in the meantime, I had looked
up all of their documentation, all of their handbooks, and I had 'em all printed
out in a folder sittin' down by my feet. So, I was--and highlighted. I'd spent
hours the night before printin' out, highlightin', so I could call 'em on their
own rules. Your rule. Not mine. So, I had that all sittin' at my feet, but I
think, by that time, they had realized that, oh, shit. We screwed this one up.
So, they tell Sam, "You're gonna graduate. You passed your finals. You're good.
We want you to walk. You're gonna graduate." This was probably an hour into the
meeting or something. And Sam looked at me. I looked at him. I said, "It's all
on you." So, they asked,
00:39:00would he accept their apology? Would we accept their apology? Said, "That's on
him. This is his. It's his deal. I'm just here for him." And he accepted their
apology. He shook their hand, and they said, "Okay, so you're gonna walk in
graduation." He said, "Nope." He said, "I wanna graduate. I want my diploma."
BOYD FRANKLIN: I want my cap and gown, but I'm not--
FRANKLIN: --"but I will--I want my cap and gown, but I will not walk and support
you, how you treated the--" other student's name. He said, "I'm gonna graduate
because that's--I deserve that. I worked for that. I want my cap and gown. I
want my diploma. But I will not walk in support of the school."
BOYD FRANKLIN: So, he--
FRANKLIN: --and he didn't--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --he didn't.
FRANKLIN: He wouldn't walk. So, it was one of those things that he chose that.
We didn't want him to do it for us because it had an impact on him, but our kids
are still, to this day, like--(laughs)--that, that they will stand up not just
for us. They'll stand up for what's right
00:40:00and carry it to the end, and that's just the way they are. So you can--
KASARABADA: --that is really impressive--
FRANKLIN: --yeah, you can't wish for anything more than that.
KASARABADA: Yeah. Yeah. So, it sounds like it made--you never had to think about
how could this affect the family? Because your family was behind you on this.
FRANKLIN: We thought about it, but they were so supportive, it wasn't a problem.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes. And, like you say--(clears throat)--it didn't even matter
that it was just us. They're so--because of us, our--for so many. Transgender,
questionable, LGBT--
KASARABADA: --intersex--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --any.
KASARABADA: Yeah, everybody.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Any. Yes.
KASARABADA: Now, this--you mentioned, you know, you're alone on this, but how
connected were you to the wider LGBT community--I don't know, in the county, in
the state, in the region?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Right. (coughs) Now, we--
00:41:00you know, with social media, I did communicate way more than she gets to with
local people as far as Louisville, Frankfort, surrounding areas. But, because
we're here, it's hard to interact with as many as you can, like in a group, or
gatherings, or something happening, somethin' goin' on, like picnics and stuff.
Shelby County just did their first Pride last year.
KASARABADA: Wow.
BOYD FRANKLIN: So--and I'm on the committee now to help and--(coughs)--set up
booths and do stuff, and it's local, but it was huge last year at the first one.
It was huge. It had a lot of people just comin' everywhere, you know? (coughs)
So many in here, Shelby County, that I didn't even know were here until this,
you know?
00:42:00And the younger generation. That's why I was saying, you know, we fought so hard
because of the younger generation bein' able to just be normal. Not--you know,
like, when we went to the Pride, you know, everybody's like, "Oh, cool, it's the
marriage equality plaintiffs." Say, "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Where are they now?"
It's so normal for what we did that they're like, "Oh, it's marriage equality
plaintiffs." You know, the younger generation, because they didn't have to--they
haven't had to go through this turmoil or anything that we've had to do or
legally because we made it so, or, in fairness, they're still fighting for--
KASARABADA: --right--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --everything.
KASARABADA: Right.
BOYD FRANKLIN: So, they're not as--it didn't blow their mind to know us, you
know? It was the norm now. That's what we fought for, so we were just cool to be
there, to talk to the different ones that wanted to talk about it.
00:43:00Or, you know, if you're gettin' married, "Thank you," you know, they would say.
But it was just--it was nice. It was cool to see everybody, so many that, when
we started doin' the parades, that wasn't that big. Now, it's huge. I mean, huge
in Louisville and Lexington that we try to be a part of the parades and
communicate with the different people like that. But, mainly, it's friends that
we've--that are part of the Kentucky Pride, and we just all communicate that
way. But we don't get to get out and do, like--I'm not sayin' nothin' bad about
Greg, or Michael, or the guys, but they were able to do more because they're out
there more as far as Louisville, and it's easier to get to and do stuff. So, we
would kinda--we would just
00:44:00sit back more because we weren't in the areas that made it easy for 'em, you know.
FRANKLIN: And our whole thing all along was, like she said, for the ones younger
than us, the ones comin' behind us. We weren't about the media side of it. I
mean, it's--we're not against it. You know, things like this to get that story
out so that people can hear our story. It's not that we were against it, but
that's not what we did it for. We did it for those ones comin' along behind us
so they didn't have to, either from her standpoint, be afraid to come out, or
from my standpoint, come out and deal with what I had to deal with. So, like she
said, when we were up to this Shelbyville Pride, there were some people that
were our age that, once they knew who we were, they're more like, "Oh, my God."
You know, "Thank you, and we're so happy, and it's nice to meet you." And then,
someone younger would just be
00:45:00like, "Oh, okay. Who are you?" And some of the older people were upset, and they
would be like, "How do you all deal with that, that they don't appreciate what
you did?" And we said, "That's the point."
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: The point is that it's not a big deal. We are not a big deal to them.
It's just normal. And, even in the last five or six years--seven years, I guess,
now--it has made leaps and bounds of difference so that, if you think of someone
who's, let's say, eighteen, seven years ago, they were eleven. So, through most
of their growing up part of their life, gay marriage was the thing. It was okay.
It was done. It was legal. It was--they don't know any different. So, the people
like us, and older than us, and have fought the battles before us, and there's,
you know, hundreds and thousands of millions that fought the battle before us
00:46:00to get us to where we were when we took it on, the fight on, because that's
not--we didn't wake up one day and say, "We're gonna be marriage equality
plaintiffs." It just happened. And, you know, we're honored to be a part of
that, but the people that were younger than us that came behind us is why we did
it, and so that, when we are introduced to someone younger that it's not a big
deal, we're not a big deal, that's the point.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
KASARABADA: Mission accomplished.
FRANKLIN: That's the point, is that they don't even have to know our name. So,
when we do these Pride parades and things, it's kinda funny because we have
a--we've got a banner made up, you know. It says, "Marriage equality
plaintiffs." And, as you go through the crowd, you can tell by the noise--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --or the people's faces--
FRANKLIN: --the age group.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: It--you know, as you're comin' up on people and they see and read the
banner, and it--if they're like, "Ah, yay!" We know they're an older group of people.
BOYD FRANKLIN: That you just got to--
FRANKLIN: --if they're just like, "Give me candy. Throw me candy,"--(all
laugh)--then, we know it's the younger
00:47:00people, and they don't even know who we are, and that's okay. That's the point--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --but then, there's so many older couples that I have reached out
through Tik-Tok, Twitter, to literally thank me a thousand times because they've
been married forty years, and it's--can now be recognized. Oh, my God. You all
are--you know, you don't realize who you are because, now, I can be fine with my
marriage, and everybody--it's legal. It's legal for my kids. It's legal for us.
Financially, you know, we talk about bein' in the hospital. Now, we don't have
to worry. And that's--I get it over, and over, and over again, of the middle-age
to older lesbians and gays saying, "You don't understand how, you know, you--
KASARABADA: --yeah--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --you've affected us."
KASARABADA: They lived through the before times--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
KASARABADA: --with you. Yeah. So,
00:48:00you call Shannon, and you say, "Okay, we're gonna do this." What happens after that?
FRANKLIN: (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: Oh, man it went fast.
FRANKLIN: I--(laughs)--we called Shannon. Said, "We're in. We're in." You know,
"What do we need from us?" And, again, like she said, you know, we're from this
side of the state, I guess, so our case had to be filed in the eastern side of
the state for the federal court, and it was Franklin v. Beshear. So, it--things
started rolling so fast. So, within--
KASARABADA: --this is summer 2013 or so--
FRANKLIN: --somewhere in that range, yes. So, before it all got said and done
with that case, there was an issue with, I think, Shannon's name change or
something registering. And then, again, you know, you have the eastern part of
the state versus the western. Little bit different mentality and things. So, our
case was kind of ongoing, but then,
00:49:00Bourke got filed in the western side of the state. So, in talkin' to Shannon,
you know, we met with her and talked to her, and it was kinda like, okay, so,
now, we're gonna have two different lawsuits filed two sides of the state.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Because her name wasn't recognized in our side--
KASARABADA: --in the Eastern District--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes.
KASARABADA: Right. Right.
FRANKLIN: So, now, we're gonna have two lawsuits, two different sides of the
state. It--there's a split in the decisions. Then, it's gonna get real
complicated. So, it was just decided that all things combined because the issue
with her bein' more familiar and more in the Louisville area, the western side
of the state, that we would merge the cases. So, at that point, when our case
merged, it technically got, I guess, dismissed, but--technically is what
happened. But, really, we merged with the other one
00:50:00so that, then, we were in one court in the western part of the state, and that's
how we ended up with Judge Heyburn, is, you know, it was just a--like a blind
draw. I don't know how they draw judges. But we--I think we were very fortunate--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
FRANKLIN: --that we did go to, you know, merge the cases. We talked about it
back and forth. Did we want to have our own case? Did we want to just go that
route? And, like we had always done with ourselves, we followed fate, and we
just felt like this was the right thing to do. It was a little bit less
complicated. It helped the attorneys. You know, Shannon and her side of it was a
little bit better because she was in Louisville, and that's where the federal
courthouse was. So, all things just kinda pointed that that was the way to do
it, and we've always said we would follow fate. So, again, the greater good was
the case, not the name. And that's, that's how we ended up being
00:51:00part of that case versus our own.
KASARABADA: So, what did being a part of the case mean at that point? What did
you all have to do? How did you work with Shannon to proceed?
FRANKLIN: You want me--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --no--
FRANKLIN: --to take this one? (all laugh)
BOYD FRANKLIN: You're okay.
KASARABADA: Kim, you wanna start?
FRANKLIN: So, you know, meetings with us and the other plaintiffs. How do we
want to proceed? What is--are we okay with this? Sign this piece of paper. I'm
gonna represent you. And--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --who's all involved--
FRANKLIN: --yeah. Who's the different plaintiffs? And the case just evolved from
there. From our standpoint, we were just dumb country girls. So, we just went
along with--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah, we would see new faces. This was a different kind of
lawyer. This was a civil rights, and then ACLU, and, see, Michael Aldridge is a
long-time school friend.
KASARABADA: Oh, really?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah, his sister, Sheila, was my best friend in school.
KASARABADA: Oh, my goodness.
BOYD FRANKLIN:
00:52:00So, I've known Michael since he was in diapers. (Kasarabada and Franklin laugh)
He doesn't tell--let me tell that story, but yeah.
KASARABADA: Probably not. (all laugh)
BOYD FRANKLIN: So, you know--
KASARABADA: --well, did it comfort you, or did it reassure you in any way to
have him on since you already knew him, or did that affect your sense of, you know--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --oh, yeah--
KASARABADA: --the trajectory of the case?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Because what he does, I have respected so much, you know, 'cause
he has done so, so much--
KASARABADA: --yes--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and me knowin' him, who he is, personally and on what he does,
it did--'cause, soon as I seen Michael--you know, of course, Kim knew of him,
but, soon as I seen him come in, I was like, oh, my God. There's Michael. You
know, and I was telling Kim, "You know, my Sheila, that's her little brother,"
and she's like, "Oh, yeah. That's ACLU." And I was like, "See, I know him
personally," so it both--fell together that we had both of them.
KASARABADA: Let me--I'm gonna stop it.
FRANKLIN: Okay.
(break in audio)
FRANKLIN: Oh, and mergin' it.
00:53:00Okay, I can--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah, and then went on to--
FRANKLIN: --we're ready--
KASARABADA: --you--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --seeing Michael and--
KASARABADA: --yes--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --go on.
FRANKLIN: (laughs) Okay.
KASARABADA: So, what I had been asking was, you know, how did it feel to have
this case merged, become a part of Bourke v Beshear instead and go that route?
What happened with that?
FRANKLIN: So, like I said, we talked about, we talked about it with the
attorneys. We were in it for three reasons. Medically, to be able to take care
of each other, benefits such as insurance and things like that, and life
insurance, and the people came along behind us. So, mergin' the cases, you know,
at some point, it felt like maybe we were losin' our identity a little bit
within the case, but it wasn't about that. It was about those three things, and
it was about the people that come along behind us, the younger people, so they
wouldn't have to go through what we went through.
00:54:00So, you know, we had a lot of discussions back and forth about it, and, you
know, we would kinda go from one to the--let's do it. Let's not do it. But, in
the end, we decided that was--it was the greater good.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Right, and we started seein' different lawyers, and then--and our
lawyers talking, and they were trying to build a case because, you know, Shannon
said, "This is wonderful. We--I wanna be a part of it and a head of it, but I
don't know how much I can take on that we're not gonna start needin', you know, backup."
KASARABADA: Right, and this was, this was her first civil rights case, federal
civil rights case too.
FRANKLIN: To this magnitude.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
KASARABADA: Yes. Yes.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Extremely smart lawyer. Family lawyers back to back to back. So,
she wanted to make sure there would not be a hiccup in any way 'cause, once that--
00:55:00once we did that, that's it. You know, we're goin'.
KASARABADA: Yeah, this train is gonna keep going.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah. So, you know, she just wanted to make sure she didn't leave
somethin' out, somethin' didn't get seen. So, you know, she was constantly
talkin' to us about that. "Are you gonna be okay if we bring these in? If--" you
know, recognition versus marriage, and, you know, these people here want to
help. They've, they've done more. But we, as who we were, we were like,
"Shannon, you have to be the leader. We're not goin' around you. You know, we
came to this dance. We're leavin' with that person," you know? As Kim always says.
FRANKLIN: We would have meetings with the plaintiffs, sometimes without the
attorneys, and we didn't always agree on who should be the lawyer, who should be
the lead lawyer, how should we do it? And we would be adamant.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
FRANKLIN: We--we're
00:56:00leavin' this dance with who we came with. Shannon brought us here. Shannon
started this.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
FRANKLIN: Shannon brought us here. We're leavin' with Shannon. And, you know,
some of 'em didn't like that--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --oh, well, she's--
FRANKLIN: --or had different opinions--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --right--
FRANKLIN: --or--we're like, "Look. We can talk about this all day long, but
we're gonna leave this dance with who we came with, and that's--it's not even up
for debate." So.
KASARABADA: Is that those kinds of disagreements, did they--were they at the
trial level, or did you see them more at, you know, at the appellate level? If
you remember the court in Cincinnati, was that where disagreements like that
came in?
FRANKLIN: It, it started prior to that, and then, even up through the Sixth
Circuit and Cincinnati, there was not--we were not always in total agreement. We
always agreed where we wanted to get to. We always agreed that the case was more
important than the individuals, be it plaintiffs or attorneys. We always agreed
00:57:00on that. That was not in debate. What we didn't agree on is the best way to get
there, and, you know, were we gonna drive the red car or the blue car? But we
always agreed that, here's where we wanted to get to, and that the case was more
important than us. And I think, at one time, I even had a little bit of a Kimmy
moment when I think I stood up in a meeting one time, and it was with the
attorneys this time, and I said, "This is--this may be about your ego, but it's
about our lives." And it was not Shannon. It was other attorneys that were
involved in the case, and I was like, "I get it. It's a big deal for you."
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah, you want to be in the Supreme Court.
FRANKLIN: This is, this is a big deal, but this is our lives, so it matters what
we say at this--(laughs)--point. It matters what we say. You're the
professionals. You're the attorneys. It's our life. It's your ego. It's your
career. It's our life. And I
00:58:00think that was really one of the first times that we had kinda fire and brimstone--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and started seeing--
FRANKLIN: --and said, "No. We're gonna have it--we're gonna have our voice
heard. We're--don't take our kindness for weakness. There's certain ways--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and then--
FRANKLIN: --this is gonna go down--
BOYD FRANKLIN: -you know, we're in a male environment, as you were talking
about. We're trying--(coughs)--to be just as equal. And, if you notice, in
habit, men just automatically gravitate to be out there more, but we're not
those type girls, so we would push back, you know? And, "Hey, now. We got this
one started." Some listened better than some. Some, in my case, feel that some
was there more for media
00:59:00than a lot. And it would hurt our feelings because that's--you know, it's not
how we wanted it to look like, and it was startin' to look like that. And, you
know, we would talk amongst ourself, but we would be so worried, and we were
constantly defending ourself as far as, "We started this. We started this." And
not because that they are pushing themselves, but because we started it in so
many different ways in our head than you did. So, I think we watched so much of
the man empowerment that we wanted to make sure Shannon, female, us, females,
push before the others.
KASARABADA: So, one of the issues was which attorney was going to be in the
spotlight at which point during different turns of the proceedings. What were some
01:00:00other things that you felt you needed to stand up for and make your voice heard?
BOYD FRANKLIN: You can--
KASARABADA: --Kim--
FRANKLIN: (laughs) Okay. We, we did have those discussions up through--like,
even up to the Sixth Circuit, and--right, there was some meetings with attorneys
and plaintiffs out of Michigan. We didn't go to those meetings, but we were, you
know, right there, aware of what was goin' on, and there was some--I guess some
thoughts that the Michigan people should play a bigger part because they'd
already had a trial--
KASARABADA: --okay--
FRANKLIN: --and the Michigan plaintiffs, but theirs wasn't about marriage. It
was about adoption. So, again, there was a lot of different egos and feelings,
and, you know, am I gonna hurt my feelings? But, from the attorneys'
01:01:00standpoint, we always kinda deferred to Shannon from us, from her and I. And
that was because we trusted her. We had started this process with her. We
trusted her to the end of time that she would make the best decision for us in
our best interest. So, when it was, like--the discussion came up about who was
gonna be the attorney, we--we still had a say. We were like, "Absolutely not
that person," or, "We're good with these two or these three. Either one of those
you pick, but not any of these." And, you know, we had our own reasons, and we
did have those conversations, and, usually, it was between ourselves, and
Shannon, and some of the other plaintiffs, and that started to be when we had to
kinda speak up a little bit more because there were different thoughts, I think,
and it came into,
01:02:00oh, this one has more name recognition.
BOYD FRANKLIN: This one has more--
FRANKLIN: --this one has this. We don't care about that. We care about the
attorney that has the most passion for what we're doin' and that is gonna, is
gonna see it through, that, that, that cares about the case, not the camera. We
don't care about the camera. We want the person that cares about the case. And
that's where some of us, we didn't always agree, and that's where some of the
bickering came in. We were supportive of the choices that were made in the end.
There were some other suggestions out there that we were like, "Nope. Nope. Not
gonna happen." You know, and we stood our ground on a few. But, when it came
down to it, we were supportive. And Shannon allowed some other attorneys to step
more forward than
01:03:00her because either, one, they had more experience, they had more backing, she
thought that was the greater good for the case, but Shannon never got the
recognition she should have got either for the case, and we were always the ones
sayin', you know, "We came to this dance with Shannon. We're gonna--"
BOYD FRANKLIN: --she also, when it was time at the Supreme Court--and I'm
jumpin' ahead just a little to prove a point--to go in, you know, you're down
there, and you--you've got to get your seat, and everybody's tryin' to get a
seat, Shannon got left out. She didn't even get to go in the Supreme Court with us--
FRANKLIN: --and I didn't know that until--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and we didn't know--
FRANKLIN: --just weeks ago.
BOYD FRANKLIN: She didn't even let us know.
FRANKLIN: I didn't know.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
KASARABADA: You haven't known for all these years?
FRANKLIN: I had--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --no--
FRANKLIN: --not--no. We did not know that because they heard the case
separately. They heard--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --recognition--
FRANKLIN: --recognition--
KASARABADA: --right--
FRANKLIN: --of, if you got married in another state,
01:04:00recognition. And then, they heard issue of marriage license. So, it, it was
actually two cases in one, and they had it in two different hearings. So, it was
such a popular case--it was the most popular civil rights case since Loving v.
Virgina. So, some of the attorneys couldn't get in. The seats, they--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --there weren't enough seats--
FRANKLIN: --just--they didn't have enough seats because it was such a popular--
BOYD FRANKLIN:--thing and--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah, it was a, it, it was a wonderful thing to see the energy,
and the support, and the crowds, and the people, and the support it had, but it
made it difficult for everybody to even get in. We didn't even know if all the
plaintiffs were gonna get in to sit in, to see the cases be heard. So, when we
went in, like I said, it was two different cases, and we were trying to divide
up because it was a different amount of plaintiffs for one versus the other.
KASARABADA: (coughs)
01:05:00Excuse me.
FRANKLIN: So, we went in on the issuance case. That wasn't even our case.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: Our case was recognition. But we said, "That's fine. We'll go into--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we just want to go and be in there--
FRANKLIN: --this hearing. We just wanna be a part of it. We--so, we didn't--we
thought Shannon went in on the other one.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: We did not know until just weeks ago. And, and had we known--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --that would not have happened that way--
BOY FRANKLIN:--that would be different--
FRANKLIN:--Shannon would have been in one or the other of those hearings--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --but that shows her passion--
FRANKLIN: --there is no doubt--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --for us.
FRANKLIN: It wasn't about her.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: It was about the case--
KASARABADA: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --for, for her standpoint, and she has never, ever gotten the
recognition she deserved for her part in this, and, and that's, that's another
thing why we're so adamant about, supportive of her, but it would have, it would
have never happened like that. I don't know what we we'd of had to done, but
somethin' would have happened. It would not have happened that way, had we known.
KASARABADA: Let's, let's go back to the case in
01:06:00 Louisville.
FRANKLIN: Okay.
KASARABADA: And so, her--Shannon and her partner, her law partner, Dawn Elliott--
FRANKLIN: --Dawn Elliott--
KASARABADA: --are working on this. They bring in other attorneys. Now, what does
it mean--what did it mean for you as clients? What did the case look like? You
know, up to Judge Heyburn's decision, and then it goes to the appellate level.
What were y'all doing?
FRANKLIN: You want me to?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah, explain. (all laugh)
FRANKLIN: So--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --go ahead, thank you--
FRANKLIN: --we, again, were just, you know, foll--this is our life. Course,
we're makin' decisions. I don't mean to seem like we were just following along
blindly. But we trusted in our attorneys. We trusted that they were gonna handle
things best for us. So, course, we kept up with the case--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and there were meetings--
FRANKLIN: --we'd have periodic meetings, and--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we were also meeting, like, when the ri--the issuance of--
FRANKLIN: --yup--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --Tim and Larry.
01:07:00That's where we became very extremely close to Tim and Larry Love.
KASARABADA: Oh, okay.
BOYD FRANKLIN: They're our brothers from another mother, Mr. thing here.
KASARABADA: Did you meet through the case, or--
FRANKLIN: --yes--
KASARABADA: --had you known them beforehand?
BOYD FRANKLIN: No, we did not know them.
FRANKLIN: Through the case.
KASARABADA: Okay.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And I just want to put that, that's what started because of who
they are that it's different.
FRANKLIN: Yeah. So, when a case came up through to the, the Heyburn decision, I
was actually traveling, I think, that day, and trying to keep up with it the
best I could, textin', and, you know, watchin' for a decision to be made. And,
you know, we kept up with--like I said, we'd had periodic meetings with
plaintiffs and attorneys and, you know, kept up with it even though I may not be
sittin' in the same room as everybody, or even with her, sometimes. But the
decision came down, and I remember, almost immediately,
01:08:00Conway came out and said he would not appeal. And then, almost immediately
behind that, Steve Beshear came out and said he was gettin' outside counsel. So,
we went through these highs and lows.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: You know, the decision was in our favor. "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah." And
then, all of a sudden, well, he's not gonna appeal. "Yay." He's gonna appeal.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: And, and we would have conversations. What does this mean? What does
it mean for us? And, you know, we would talk through it, and I'd--for the most
part, as an overall concept, I kinda knew what it meant for us.
BOYD FRANKLIN: She knew a lot of legal terms and legal things.
FRANKLIN: So, we would talk through it, and I'd be like, "It's okay, baby.
Don't--it's okay. It's okay. Don't get nervous. It's okay." But it was the
highest highs and the lowest lows through that part of it. You know, we won.
Well, they're--you know, he's not gonna appeal. "Yay." Oh, he's gonna appeal.
He's gonna get outside counsel. And, you know, we've got our own thoughts on
that, and they're neither here nor there, but
01:09:00we went through those highs and lows with the case all the way up through the
Sixth Circuit--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --'cause, by the time the Sixth Circuit made its decision, some of the
other circuits were already deciding. So, we would have conversations and be
like, "Okay, if the Sixth Circus rule--Sixth Circuit rules against us, it's not
a horrible thing because then we got a split, and then the Supreme Court's more
likely to hear the case, so don't, don't just be like--"
BOYD FRANKLIN: --that was that call and we said, "Oh, my God. We're not gonna
lose it." (laughs)
FRANKLIN: So, again, it was those highs and lows through the whole thing. It was
like a roller coaster. We were, like, on a roller coaster through the whole
case. And then, you know, sure enough, Sixth Circuit split, and she was almost
in tears.
KASARABADA: How did you find out about the opinion in--from Judge Heyburn? You
said you were traveling, Kim.
FRANKLIN: I was traveling, and she texted me, and I think she'd got it on her
social media or
01:10:00something, and I ran to my truck, and got in the truck, and turned the radio on
so that I could hear it, and then--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --I'm not good on my layman's terms. (all laugh) I mean, you know--
FRANKLIN: --and then, I got on my phone, was sittin' in my truck, listenin' to
the radio, trying to get on my phone to see 'cause there was, you know, live
news conferences, and you know. So, I think I was in Tennessee. I think that's
where I was. So, I was--I'm tryin'--I'm listenin' on the radio. I'm in my truck,
and I'm Googlin', tryin' to get some live feeds to see what was goin' on, and it
was just these highs and lows.
KASARABADA: Did you read the opinion?
FRANKLIN: We did. We read it. Absolutely. And I even had--(laughs)--took some of
the verbiage from it and put our picture in the background, put it over top, and
we still have that. I don't even think we've--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
FRANKLIN: --unpacked it since we've moved, but--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --I did a picture of us with the wording over top of it.
KASARABADA: Oh, that's lovely.
FRANKLIN: So--but, yeah, that, that was--that's still--you know, the Heyburn
01:11:00ruling is still, I think--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
FRANKLIN: --maybe I'm a little bit biased, but I think is one of the better
written decisions in the whole process of the case.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Heyburn, yes.
FRANKLIN: You know?
KASARABADA: What is it that--about it that makes you think that?
FRANKLIN: Just the way he put it out there that, you know, these people have
this right. They're not--they just want to live their lives, and I don't
remember his exact verbiage, but just basically that the Constitution gives them
that right. They don't wanna hurt anybody. Their marriage doesn't affect yours.
You know, and just--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --it doesn't mean it takes away--every gay marriage doesn't take
away from a heterosexual, you know? He, he, he was extremely supportive in, in
his words. He was just a real emotional--put it--he put 'em out there real emotional--
KASARABADA: --you felt the emotion--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
KASARABADA: --in the opinion?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
FRANKLIN: Reading it, and that it--like, our marriage doesn't take away from
theirs. We
01:12:00just wanna enjoy that. And I think part of his wording was--or maybe the
argument against it in front of him was that we would diminish it or not respect
the sanctity of marriage, which is the opposite. We want to show that we do
respect it. We wouldn't fight this hard if we didn't respect it, you know,
marriage, the sanctity of marriage. So, his ruling and his verbiage in the
wording was wonderful, I think.
KASARABADA: Oh, were you moving it to your--to you, Tammy?
BOYD FRANKLIN: No, I was makin'--she's holdin' onto it. (Franklin and Kasarabada laugh)
KASARABADA: I was struck. There was a point early on in his opinion where he
says, "In many ways, you know, plaintiffs are just average Americans," and I
thought that that said it--
FRANKLIN: --yeah--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
KASARABADA: --exactly right there.
FRANKLIN: We had done an interview leading up to the case. We had done an
interview with a--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --was it--
FRANKLIN: --
01:13:00newspaper or somethin', and I made the comment that we're the most traditional
family you would ever know or somethin' like that. Old-fashioned. I think I used
the term old-fashioned. And there was a church in southern Kentucky, I think,
that they--the preacher just came out and blasted me, you know, for saying we--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we are--
FRANKLIN: --you know, we're just an--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --traditional--
FRANKLIN: --old-fashioned, traditional family, couple and family. And, you know,
it--you can still read those stories. It's just amazing how people just came
out. And, you know, we did have some of that, but we're like, you know, "Come
on." We are. You know, we go to work. We cook at home. We have a garden. We have
kids. We have animals. We're as--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we argue. We don't argue--
FRANKLIN: --we're as--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --it's the same--
FRANKLIN: --common, low-key, low-maintenance as they come, you know? And we
always have been. Both raised on a farm. We're not high maintenance.
01:14:00We're as low-key, common, normal, ordinary people as you'll ever meet.
KASARABADA: So, that reminds me that, you know, you're doing publicity. You're
talking to the press, talking to the public all along the legal proceedings
here. But I imagine that, once the Heyburn decision came down, it must have
reached a whole different level. That's what it seems like. For a Kentucky judge
to declare gay marr--or bans agai--the state's law as unconstitutional--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --okay--
KASARABADA: --now, it's gonna go to the appellate court. People are waiting, as
you said, Kim, for that circuit split. So, what--is that right? Do I have an
accurate characterization of that, or did it feel like, no, it was pretty much
what it was before?
FRANKLIN: No, the Heyburn decision was a big deal. What happened
01:15:00so quickly was that it--we're not gonna appeal it.
KASARABADA: Right.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: And then--
KASARABADA: --right--
FRANKLIN: --well, we are gonna appeal it, you know, through the state. So, that
happened just hours, I think, that it went, you know, like that roller coaster.
So, then, it became--the story became more about--it was gonna be appealed, I
think. And then, people started comin' out of the woodwork--(laughs)--a little
bit about, "Well, Steven Beshear's gonna waste all of our money." Well, he
didn't have to. (laughs) He didn't have to appeal it. You know, the decision was
correct. He didn't have to appeal it. So, then, it was, you know, these gay
people are costin' us all this tax--(laughs)--money, and, you know, it was like
that. Like, no. So, then, the story was not as much about the case or the
Heyburn decision and the
01:16:00ruling as it was, now what do we do? Because, in the state of Kentucky, you
know, the constitutional amendment that, within the state, was hugely against
us, you know, as far as marriages between a man and a woman, so we were already
fightin' an uphill battle. So, then, you know, the Heyburn decision comes down.
It's in our favor. We're not gonna appeal. Yeah, we're gonna appeal.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And so many--
FRANKLIN: --and it--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --people are like, "Oh, it's never happenin' in Kentucky, so
y'all can just keep takin' your time and goin' through your motions, and--"
FRANKLIN: --and that is what, I think, brought out some of the negativity, is
because there were people out there who were just like, "Oh, those little gay
people. It's okay." And then, we were successful. The Heyburn ruling was in our
favor. And then, okay, we're not gonna appeal, or we're gonna appeal. But, now,
people, all of a sudden, are being like, "Oh, hey, maybe we ought to pay attention
01:17:00here. There may be somethin' to this gay marriage. I don't know if I like it."
So, we had that. So, that's--I think that's what started bringing some of the
negativity out, is that, before, it was just like people were like, "This is
Kentucky. It's never gonna happen." And then, all of a sudden, "Well, hold on."
And there was even some talk in legal circles that Kentucky wasn't the right
place. This wasn't the right time, and Kentucky wasn't the right place. And,
again, Shannon and the attorneys were like, "No, we think it is." It's right.
It's the right thing to do. It doesn't matter if it's the right zip code or the
right, you know, time of day, the right person. It's the right thing. Everything
else should fall in place, and it did. But there was not total agreement in
legal circles.
KASARABADA: Which legal circles?
BOYD FRANKLIN: As far as--
FRANKLIN: --
01:18:00just a--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --keep goin', takin' this on, and--
KASARABADA: --you mean--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --being in Kentucky--
KASARABADA: --legal circles within your legal team?
FRANKLIN: And, and--
KASARABADA: --whether we--
FRANKLIN: --outside of there.
KASARABADA: Okay.
FRANKLIN: Even on a national level.
KASARABADA: Oh, I see.
FRANKLIN: On a national level, there was some fear that maybe Kentucky wasn't
the right place.
KASARABADA: Right, that, if it--that, if there's bad rulings here, then that can
set us back.
FRANKLIN: Correct. Right.
KASARABADA: It can slow it down.
FRANKLIN: Right.
KASARABADA: It can--now we got to, you know, make up--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
KASARABADA: --ground--
FRANKLIN: --yup--
KASARABADA: --and it's gonna take--prolong this.
FRANKLIN: There was some concerns--
KASARABADA: --okay--
FRANKLIN: --in legal circles within Kentucky and outside of Kentucky.
KASARABADA: Okay.
FRANKLIN: But, again, our attorneys knew it was the right thing to do--
KASARABADA: --Tammy--
FRANKLIN: --and we'll take the fight on.
KASARABADA: Did you wanna add anything to what Kim is saying?
BOYD FRANKLIN: What I--we were sayin' too, as far as the legal part, and then
it--as I seen, I started seeing people start to change a bit. You know, the
01:19:00supportive people wasn't so supportive 'cause they--I think they assumed it just
wasn't gonna happen, like she said. The little gay people over here to the side,
playin' their little game, and we'll let it run through. And then, they started
seeing that things were happening, and it was like, oh, they're gonna try to
equal us, and we don't want that. I mean, that was a lot of people that
surprised me, just my friends, or family, or somethin' that were like, "Oh, now
it's on now, and it looks like it's gettin' real, and I don't really believe in
it." You know, they were supportive, thinkin' we're just playing house over here
on the corner, to, oh, now, they really are gonna be like us, and we don't want
that. But they still, in a way, to this day--to me, they seem like--that
01:20:00we're just still that--it's still set aside. It's still not a true marriage.
KASARABADA: To this day.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah, still to this day, 'specially in the ones that don't
understand it at all, aren't even tryin' to understand it. So, then, they
already put labels on it instead of trying to figure it out and why, they keep
it to the lesbians on the corner kind of thing. You know, with the old tales of,
oh, the lesbians next door, they've moved in. They must have a sex dungeon
downstairs, you know? Or, oh, look at the girls over--(laughs)--there, or, "Does
your wife mind if we go shopping together? I mean, she won't think nothin'?" I
don't want every woman just because I'm a lesbian. It's okay. I'm not
gonna--(laughs)--attack you in the car. They still don't see that
01:21:00it's still the same thing. I trust you. You trust me. You don't do what you're
not supposed to do. I don't do what I'm supposed--I find someone attractive, I
don't find somebody attractive. It's the same thing that heterosexuals go
through, and they still don't, they still don't know how to separate it.
KASARABADA: So, you're finding out a lot about your neighbors and your
community, it sounds like, through this whole process.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And even the neighbors that like us like us, but they still do
the jokes, or they still do the racism of marriage equality. You know, they
still make the puns. I think--I don't know if they're tryin' to fit in and they
don't know how. They don't know how to interact with us, but they like us. They
like us individually and that we're a unit.
01:22:00They don't know what to do with us. And, you know, we almost spook them
sometimes 'cause we're like, "I can stand next to you. Doesn't mean I'm gonna,"
you know, or, "You can hug me. It's okay." You know? (laughs) It's just so odd
to watch them when I don't know if they're tryin' not to make a mistake, or if
they're tryin' to lighten it, and we don't need to be lightened, you know? So,
you know, I have to explain to them, "Don't come at me with
those--(laughs)--crazy jokes, and I'm just like you." And the man and the woman.
Who's the man? Who's the woman in the relationship? That is just--God, that's
just--that's worse than Adam and Steve, okay? (all laugh)
KASARABADA: So, you have to teach them how to relate to you.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Right.
KASARABADA: Yeah.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And it should--like, we see it as natural because heterosexuals,
it's natural. We know what that's about.
01:23:00Even if we're gay, we still know, and they still can't turn it around to see us
that way.
KASARABADA: Right. Right.
BOYD FRANKLIN: You know?
KASARABADA: Yeah. So, the ruling comes down, and it looks like, you know,
governor--the Beshear administration is trying to figure out its maneuvers, and
they do select a outside counsel, a firm out of Ashland, to, to appeal the case.
And so, what happens for your case at that point? How does it proceed as it
makes its way to the Sixth Circuit?
FRANKLIN: So, then--now, of course, we're not sure what's goin' on, not really
in limbo, but, now, we're confused. Okay. So, now what happens? Well, again, I
had a little bit of an understanding that, okay, now we're gonna go to the Sixth
Circuit. And, again,
01:24:00I'd been reading up on other circuits and, you know, how it was bein' handled in
other states and had a little bit of a understanding how it would work anyway.
I'm kind of like a news hole, so--(laughs)--I like to watch the news, and read
the news, and keep up on stuff. So, I just--we didn't know the timing. We didn't
know how all the details would work, but, you know, we talked among ourselves
and, like, okay, so, we're gonna have to go to the Sixth Circuit, and it's gonna
be, you know, Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee. So, now, the cases get
merged. And we knew, too, that's where it would get a little bit muddied because
there'd be other attorneys, and plaintiffs, and ideas, and cases, but this is
the process, you know. This is how it works, and this is what we have to do, and
it's a process, and it's a journey, and we're gonna go through. So, you know,
we, we kinda
01:25:00talked through that, and, again, we didn't know a whole lot of the details--the
specifics, I guess, details. But we did know that this would be the next steps.
KASARABADA: Okay.
FRANKLIN: So, then, we would have meetings because, again, it now brought in
other people, other plaintiffs, other states, other attorneys. Who's gonna argue
before the Sixth Circuit? How is that gonna work? We--you know, the attorneys
had to get all their filings in, I guess. I don't know the correct legal
terminology, but they had to get all their documentation in, choose an attorney,
you know, and we were all part of that, and, okay, now we're gonna go to this
rally the night before.
KASARABADA: That's right.
FRANKLIN: And, you know, who is--who wants to go? Are we gonna go as a group?
Are--you know, and, again, we were like, "We'll be there. We'll meet you there,"
you know, because we didn't know how it was gonna be. And, from where we're at
here, we're not that far from Cincinnati if
01:26:00we go the back way. So, we can go the back roads and be in Cincinnati in a
little over an hour.
KASARABADA: You're kidding.
FRANKLIN: No. If we go the back way, we can be in Cincinnati in like an hour and
fifteen or twenty minutes, even from here, because, at the time, we only lived,
like, a mile and a half around the corner the other way. So, we're like--
KASARABADA: --you're gonna have to tell me your route-- (Kasarabada and Franklin laugh)
FRANKLIN: Okay. So, we're like, "We'll just--we'll make it on our own. We'll be
fine. We'll get there."
KASARABADA: Okay.
FRANKLIN: So, we, we went to that, and they're like, "Okay, they're gonna have
this rally, and everybody's gonna talk." And, you know, "Do you all wanna talk?"
I'm like, "Yeah, we'll talk a little bit." So, I wrote up real quick, you know,
what we were gonna say, and we went, and all the plaintiffs talked, and all the
attorneys talked. So, it, again, was like this big, "Yay," you know. (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: And it was so--and it felt so good to just see everybody's face,
and they were or us, you know?
KASARABADA: This was the first time that you were probably around,
01:27:00you know, a mass gathering that was--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --that was our first--
KASARABADA: --just purely for you all, you know?
FRANKLIN: Yes. Yes.
KASARABADA: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: That was.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: And, and I remember we were, we were talkin', and I remember I messed
up our wedding date.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah. (Boyd Franklin and Kasarabada laugh)
FRANKLIN: And she--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --out loud--
FRANKLIN: --corrected me--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --but I fixed it.
FRANKLIN: She corrected me. And, of course, the crowd thought that was funny,
you know, and it wasn't--I didn't aim to, but I did. And then, part of my
conversation that I said was, you know, I made the point that we were raised on
a farm. We're from a small town. We still say, "Yes, ma'am and no, ma'am." And
somebody out in the crowd was like, "Thank you all," and, you know, and it was
just so much good, positive energy.
BOYD FRANKLIN: It was.
FRANKLIN: And, yes, that was the first big gathering that we were able to do that.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And--
FRANKLIN: --so--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --you know, of course, everything makes us cry. Well, makes me
cry. Everything makes me cry. I'm more of the emotional one but she even cried.
And, and because--I mean, it's like, you know, I
01:28:00explained to her at a powwow, the drums, and it's like that crowd's out there,
and they're yellin', and--
FRANKLIN: --the energy--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --you feel it. Yeah, and you feel it all the way to your bones,
you know, and you feel it in your chest, and--you know, and it's--you want that
all over the place. Like, that feeling. I want to walk down the street, and be
able to hold her hand, and just feel love, and not feel like that somebody's
gonna get us, or attack us, or not like it, or--you know, we want it to be
normal. We hope that it gets, even through fairness, that stuff like that become normal.
FRANKLIN: And, and I think the Heyburn ruling, and especially the, the wording
of it, the verbiage--I think that, to me, it gave me, like, a sense of not only
pride, but it gave me a sense of we do belong. Somebody sees it.
BOYD FRANKLIN: So, we didn't come out from under a rock,
01:29:00you know?
FRANKLIN: Yeah. Somebody else sees it that's, you know, a good, smart, legal mind.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
FRANKLIN: He gets it. He gets it. And then, it was like, why is the state
fightin' us so hard? You know, by this point, it's like, why are people fightin'
us? And then, okay, well, we realize where we live, and that's okay. And, you
know, and then we had the people--well, if you don't like it here, leave--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --and go somewhere else. Uh-uh. This is as much our state as it is
yours, and we're gonna fight for what's right. We're only asking to be done
what's right. We're gonna fight for that. And, if you don't like it, you can
leave. This is our state too. We were born and raised here too. We're not gonna
run and hide. So, you know, then, we got into that. So, then, it kinda morphed,
I guess, into a--we're not gonna run and hide. We're right. Heyburn got it
right. We're not trying to force anything
01:30:00down your throat. We just want to be treated equal. It's all we're asking. Not
special. Just equal. And this is the right thing to do. And I think, the farther
we went with that, the more we come to understand it was right. We were right.
And we were gonna keep fightin'. So, I think that's how we kinda developed
into--(laughs)--it, I guess, is that we knew it was right for us, but, the more
we saw things like that, it was more like, okay, it really is not just about us.
It really is the right thing to do for everybody else, and we're gonna keep
doin' it.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And, boy, just, like, the road to, as we'll talk, or whenever,
however, it was so fast. I mean, from a hotel room, to bein' ready, to get
ready, to walk down, to walk in the line with the others. I mean, everything
01:31:00in Washington is walk--
KASARABADA: --yes--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --so, you know, we're walkin' here. We're walkin' there. We're
gonna meet these, and we're gonna go--it almost was too fast so that I could
take every single thing in. And then, we look back, and I'm like, "Oh, man, we
should have took more pictures there. Oh, man, we should have done pictures
there." And, you know, we wanted--we didn't want to be egotistically in your
face, but we're so upset that we didn't get enough pictures, you know, 'cause
we're--you know, all the guys, everybody has pictures, and we don't have that
many. So, because we were so--trying to be respectful and trying to be
honorable--and then we wound up missin' out more than we really wanted to.
KASARABADA: And we're gonna get to the Supreme Court--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
KASARABADA: --in a bit. Just to stay at the Sixth Circuit for a little while--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
KASARABADA: --longer, Laura Landenwich did the oral argument.
FRANKLIN: Yes.
KASARABADA:
01:32:00And I think the plaintiffs, you all were involved in selecting that or making
that possible, if I understand that correctly.
FRANKLIN: Yes. There were different meetings, and, you know, by this time, like
I said, by the time it got to the Sixth Circuit, it was Michigan, Ohio,
Kentucky, and Tennessee. And, for--and there were different--but, at that point,
each state, I think, had a different attorney got to argue--
KASARABADA: --yes--
FRANKLIN: --a little bit. Well, from our standpoint as plaintiffs from Kentucky,
it was, okay, who's gonna argue this? And, you know, discussion back, and forth,
and there again. That was one where we kinda deferred to Shannon and Dawn at
that point. It'd been like, "If you all are okay with it, we're okay with it.
But, if you're not, then we'll stand up and say, 'No.'" But I think the general
consensus at that point was that she did--you know, had pretty good backing and
pretty good experience,
01:33:00I guess, or knowledge of the case by that time. That's just who they felt like
was best, and we were supportive of that.
KASARABADA: I understand that there was some sort of voting or something along
those lines.
FRANKLIN: Yeah. I don't know exact--I don't remember exactly. And, again, we
weren't there for every single meeting because we're not--
KASARABADA: --okay--
FRANKLIN: --fifteen minutes away that, "Hey, we're gonna meet in So-and-so's
office real quick," but it was one of those cases where we said, as long as
Shannon and or Dawn did not object, we would be supportive of the decision.
KASARABADA: Okay.
FRANKLIN: That's kinda how we left it because we are, you know, forty-five
minutes out. We can't, at a drop of a hat, run down on our lunch break and--
KASARABADA: --sure--
FRANKLIN: --go meet for twenty minutes or whatever. But, yeah, there was--I'm
gonna--there was a lot of discussion we were involved in, but, when it came down
to it, it was more like, if you all are okay with it, we're okay with it.
KASARABADA: So, you go to--for the oral argument. The night before, there is
this beautiful--
FRANKLIN: --rally--
KASARABADA: --rally.
01:34:00And then, what's the day of the oral argument like? What happens?
FRANKLIN: We were still kind of, I guess, pumped up from the night before, the
rally, and, you know, excited, and, okay, now, we don't know what this is gonna
be like. And I'm notorious for bein' a little bit mischievous, I guess, or have
a nervous energy, laughter, a nervous energy. So, Tammy's always scared or
nervous of what I'm gonna do, you know? (Franklin and Kasarabada laugh) Am I
gonna act up? And I'm clumsy. Am I gonna fall in the middle of the court?
(laughs) So--but, you know, so, it was all this nervous energy, and excitement,
and okay, you know, we're gonna sit in here. And I'm a notetaker. I love to take
notes, so I'm tryin' to take notes and scribble on pieces of paper, and, a
little bit at the Sixth Circuit, more so later on, at the Supreme Court. Tammy
knows sign
01:35:00language, and she's tried to teach me over the years, and it usually ends like
that, but--(Franklin and Kasarabada laugh)--so, she's tryin' to sign to me, even
sittin' in the, you know, the Sixth Circuit 'cause you don't wanna talk. And I
don't sign. I've never learned it. I can't learn it. I wish I could. So, we're
tryin' to write notes and communicate, and--(Franklin and Kasarabada laugh)--you
know. But just huge excitement for us. We--I think her and I felt it was a
little bit disrespectful to Heyburn, you know, that we had to be there because,
if his decision had stood, we wouldn't be there, and we were so respectful of
him and his decision, but we--again, we knew this was the process. We knew this
was just part of that process, and I always had it in the back of my head. I had
researched the Sixth Circuit. I had researched
01:36:00the--you know, the decisions, and which ones were overturned, and how they
typically ruled, and--so, I always had it in the back of my head that--probably
not gonna win--(laughs)--this one, you know. And, granted, I still, again, knew
it was right, and we should win, but I always had it in the back of my head, and
I would always--'cause it was such a roller coaster. I would always try to keep
her calm. Like, "Baby, it's okay. If the Sixth Circuit rules against us, it's
okay. We're still rolling down this journey together, and it's gonna be okay."
KASARABADA: It was also the first time that all of the different plaintiffs and
legal teams from all over the Sixth Circuit were together. Is that right?
FRANKLIN: All of 'em. It--from my understanding, yes. Like I said, there were
some meetings prior to that--
KASARABADA: --yes--
FRANKLIN: --and I think our attorneys and some of the plaintiffs even drove
01:37:00up to Michigan, like, for a real long day trip, but I think that was the first
time that they were all in the same general area.
KASARABADA: So, you were meeting your fellow plaintiffs in the other--from the
other states as well. Or were you able to meet them? Were you able to talk or
connect with them in any way?
BOYD FRANKLIN: We met 'em all, of course, but we connected with the Ohio plaintiffs.
KASARABADA: Obergefell.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes. And--I had to make sure. And they were from New York, and
they were wonderful. They had a little baby, a little boy at the time. And we
really connected with them, and I keep in contact with them through Facebook,
and, you know, they'll send me Pride pictures every year in New York 'cause that
would be my main--wantin' to do. But--
FRANKLIN: --the Ohio group.
BOYD FRANKLIN: But the Ohio group is really nice.
01:38:00The other two, Tennessee.
FRANKLIN: Tennessee.
BOYD FRANKLIN: We met 'em, but there was not a connection.
KASARABADA: And then Michigan.
BOYD FRANKLIN: They didn't really want to connect so well--(laughs)--so we just
said "Hi" and did our part, you know.
FRANKLIN: And there was a lot goin' on, you know. They had their own stuff goin'
on. We kinda had our own stuff goin' on. So, it was more of like a respectful
acknowledge each other.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: And then, as we went along, we bonded more with some couples than
others, her especially, you know, having conversations with them. But we didn't
have a whole lot of time to just--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah, it was a lot--
FRANKLIN: --sit and talk--
KASARABADA: --sure--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --of rush and push, and--
KASARABADA: --yeah, you're there for a reason, so--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
KASARABADA: --everybody's just tryin' to do that, yeah. So, listening to the
oral argument--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --oh, God--
KASARABADA: --what did you think? Tammy, Kim was saying you were trying to
sign--(laughs)--questions and carry on
01:39:00a conversation in sign language, but tell me what you were seeing as, you know,
you saw Laura Landenwich argue the case, and Beshear's representative there as well--
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
KASARABADA: --arguing their case. And what did you make of, you know, the panel
and the judge's questions? What are your impressions or thoughts?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Well, of course, you sit there, and it's, it's very military. You
know, you, you don't make hand gestures. You keep your hands to your side. It's
so regal. You know, you know you're in a place of true honor, so you totally
respect everything you're supposed to do. Mind you, I have to keep her in line
sometimes. (laughs)
FRANKLIN: That's all right.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And she can't hear, too, that well, so I'm tryin' to make sure I
hear her so she'll speak louder, or--you know, it was so articulate as far as
how people were placed, how
01:40:00the bench looked. I mean, you will never ever imagine the tallness and the
grantuity [sic] of it all. You'll never.
FRANKLIN: She's talkin' Sixth Circuit right now.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Oh, I'm sorry.
FRANKLIN: It's okay.
KASARABADA: Oh, you're thinking of the Supreme Court.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes, I was talkin' about the Supreme Court. I'm so sorry.
KASARABADA: Oh, that's okay. Well, that'll give me something to talk about,
follow up on--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
KASARABADA: --when we get there.
BOYD FRANKLIN: But we'll get there. Okay. But the Sixth Circuit.
KASARABADA: So, you're in Cincinnati.
BOYD FRANKLIN: I don't remember--
FRANKLIN: --when we went to that rally the night--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --so I don't know--
FRANKLIN: --before.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah. I don't remember, though, the--I remember her talking, and
I remember her sayin' her--you know, her big spiel and everything, and it was--I
remember sittin' by certain people. I think we were sittin' by Tim and Larry,
and--but her bein' up there, bein' a woman that--we liked that, to hear that
she's doin' our part, and she spoke true of everything. I mean, she was
01:41:00very intricate on what she was saying, but, as far as the feel, it, it just
seemed so rushed to me. I was--
KASARABADA: --it's true. They were--I mean, they had to get through their
arguments, and then the next went up--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and then, the Ohio--
KASARABADA: --yes--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --lawyer, and we heard everybody's.
FRANKLIN: Yeah.
BOYD FRANKLIN: His stuck out to me a lot 'cause he was very--a very emotional
lawyer. He was very smart, and, I mean, I remember Laura. She--her little voice.
She wasn't as loud as most. But him, he was really onto it too as well. I liked
listenin' to him.
FRANKLIN: One of the main things I remember from that, and I don't remember the
judge's names, but I can see 'em. (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: I can remember now, yeah.
FRANKLIN: And there was a male judge sitting on this side.
KASARABADA: Jeff Sutton, Judge Sutton.
FRANKLIN: At the--yes. And his comment or his question was,
01:42:00"Why couldn't you wait and let the voters decide?"
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah, I remember it now.
FRANKLIN: "Why are we here now to decide this from a judicial standpoint instead
of a vote?" Let the voters decide, I think, was kinda his thing. And there was a
female judge sitting either the last one or the next to last one over here, and
she immediately called him on it and talked about women's right to vote, and how
long that took, and how it's only been really recently--you know, years, as
years go. And I think, for me, and even us 'cause I think that was one time we
looked at each other, it was like--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --oh, yeah--(laughs)--
FRANKLIN: --is that those are the kind of things that I think--what--his
comment, I think, were the kind of things that people would rely on. Well, let
the--the voters decided this way. Why can't you let the voters decide? Because
the voters still can't
01:43:00rule on our civil rights, you know? It's wrong, and that's why we're here. So,
that was one of the key points, I think, in that whole thing that stood out to
me, is that he tried to make the point that it was more of a vote issue. It's
not. You can't vote on civil rights. Civil rights aren't up for vote. So, it's
how you interpret it and how you see it. So, that was the main thing, I think, I
remember from it.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
KASARABADA: That exchange, I think--I think that got some play in the press as
well, and I think that was Judge Sutton, and then it was Judge Martha Daughtrey who--
FRANKLIN: --that's--I remember the name now that you say it--
KASARABADA: --responded back about the Nineteenth Amendment, yes.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Wow.
FRANKLIN: Yup.
KASARABADA: Are we doin' all right with them?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah. We got a new fence put up, so I'm lettin' 'em run, but, of
course, they want to be at the door instead of goin' out there, running.
KASARABADA: (laughs) Well, there's something going on here.
BOYD FRANKLIN: I know.
KASARABADA: They got to know what that is.
BOYD FRANKLIN: They're chihuahuas,
01:44:00so, of course they do.
KASARABADA: So, was it a long day for you? What happens after the oral argument? (coughs)
FRANKLIN: I don't--I'll be honest with you. I don't remember. I--
KASARABADA: --that's fine--
FRANKLIN: --think the rally, for us, was such an emotional high, and then
the--bein' in that hearing, and it was kind of, you know, we're gonna do this,
do this, do that. I don't remember it. And the fact that I don't remember, I
think, tells us that it was so much goin' on, and swirlin', and--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah, I don't--
FRANKLIN: I remember the rally--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we were walking back around and--
FRANKLIN: --really more so--(laughs)--than anything, and I think we drove back
that afternoon.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
KASARABADA: Oh, wow.
FRANKLIN: I think we only spent the night.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: I think we drove up that afternoon of the rally, that day of the
rally, went to the rally, spent that night, and we drove back the next day.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And then, that shows you, you know, we just did this big thing,
but yet, we come right back home to normalcy.
KASARABADA: Yeah. Yeah.
FRANKLIN: Yeah.
BOYD FRANKLIN: You know, we still had shit to do, you know? (Boyd Franklin and
Franklin laugh)
KASARABADA: That's a whirlwind twenty-four hours--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
KASARABADA: --that you had. (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: We did a lot of those.
KASARABADA: You went to a
01:45:00rally. You had all-day oral arguments. Then, you come home, and it's time to let
the dogs out.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah. (laughs) Kids to do this and that.
FRANKLIN: The kids and the dogs.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And the clothes to wash, yes.
KASARABADA: Yeah. Okay. So, do you remember how you heard what the Sixth
Circuit's decision was?
BOYD FRANKLIN: No.
FRANKLIN: I don't remember exactly where I was or how I heard that as much as I
do remember immediately havin' to calm her down because she was upset that we
had lost at the Sixth Circuit, and I remember saying, "It's okay, baby. We
talked about this. Remember, we talked about how we may lose. We might even
probably lose.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And I think--
FRAKNLIN: --and it would make a split,"--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we were on the road and you were texting me.
FRANKLIN: (laughs) It--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we were--
FRANKLIN: --may have again--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --that it was a split in the circuits, and that would probably be a
good thing because, now, the
01:46:00Supreme Court didn't have to take up the case, but, more than likely, they would
because there was a split in the circuits. And I don't remember where we were or anything.
KASARABADA: Okay.
FRANKLIN: I just remember calmin' her down and, in my mind, thinkin', here we
go. Here we go. So, I always saw that as a--granted, I would rather it ruled in
our favor, but I always saw that as a turning point, as a big deal. I thought,
when the Sixth Circuit ruled against us, that that was a big deal, and it would
be a good thing.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah, because all our gay friends were like, "Oh, it's gonna take
another two or three years of this, that," but--
KASARABADA: --right--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --oh, we get you. Oh, okay, yeah, we heard that part. It's no big
deal just yet. And we kept thinkin', no, I think it's gonna get somewhere.
FRANKLIN: Pretty quick.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And there you go.
KASARABADA: And it did. (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: My friends are like, "No way, cannot be happening." (laughs)
FRANKLIN: 'Cause I think it was, like,
01:47:00November, the Sixth Circuit, and then they said they were gonna hear the case
in, like, December, and I think March is when we went to the Supreme Court. So,
we--and that was the other thing that people kept tellin' us that knew how these
cases went. It was that this was on, like, a fast track.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: And I think that's the other thing that, from our standpoint, it's
hard for us to remember everything 'cause it's almost like, you know, those
movies or video games where you're kinda rollin' along, and everything's goin'
by you in different directions and high speed, and--but it--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah, that nobody ever--
FRANKLIN: --did go pretty quick--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --dreamed it would go like it did, that fast. There's no way.
KASARABADA: It, it really did seem like the Supreme Court was just waiting.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
KASARABADA: And, as soon as, you know, the, the, the reversal came from--
FRANKLIN: --and then--again--it was November.
KASARABADA: It was November 2014.
FRANKLIN: And then--and December, I think, is when the Supreme Court said they
would hear the case.
KASARABADA: Yes.
FRANKLIN: And then it was in April--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
KASARABADA: --because they immediately filed--
BOYD FRANKLIN: April the twenty-seven--
KASARABADA: --the appeal with the Supreme Court, and
01:48:00it was like, as soon as it was filed, it was--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --oh, yeah--
KASARABADA: --taken up. Yeah. Yeah.
FRANKLIN: Yup.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah, 'cause we kept thinkin' there'd be pauses as these times
would come, but then we would be like, "Oh, no, wait. We're goin' again." You
know, "Oh, wait. Really?" (laughs)
KASARABADA: You were thinking that this was a, this was a routine case. (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah. Yeah, like oh it's--
KASARABADA: --but the Supreme Court knew that it was not a--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --right--
KASARABADA: --routine case. Yeah. So, okay. I--actually, I think the oral
argument at, at the Supreme Court was in April--
FRANKLIN: --it was April--
KASARABADA: --2015--
FRANKLIN: --twenty-eighth.
KASARABADA: Twenty--April twenty-eighth.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Twenty-eighth, yes.
KASARABADA: That's right. That's right.
BOYD FRANKLIN: We got our little thingy that--
KASARABADA: --2015. And so, you know, what were those months in between like?
Was there any further involvement on your parts from the case, or was this all
in the lawyers' hands at this point--
FRANKLIN: --that's when I think the meetings started to pick back up, if I
remember right. Meetings and or conversations.
BOYD FRANKLIN:
01:49:00Like with--what is it? Equality.
FRANKLIN: ACLU, and then marriage equality, marriage, freedom--freedom to marry.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Freedom to marry.
KASARABADA: Freedom to marry.
FRANKLIN: So--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --it all started like that--
FRANKLIN: --then, there started to be a lot of outside people comin' in.
KASARABADA: Stanford Legal Clinic and--
FRANKLIN: --right--
KASARABADA: --other sort of Supreme Court specialists.
FRANKLIN: Yes. And then, some of those attorneys, then, we started to meet with 'cause--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
FRANKLIN: --now, who's gonna hear the--who's, who's gonna present--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --the Fishers--
FRANKLIN: --the case for us? Yeah, the, the individual from Stanford and the
lady who eventually did it, and--but, you know, now, it's all of a sudden, okay,
now you gotta decide which attorney's gonna do that.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Who do you wanna--yeah.
FRANKLIN: And, and we met--we started meeting with the national ACLU--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --and other groups. She went to a few meetings, and rallies, and
things like that that I didn't go to, working, or traveling, or whatever. But, then,
01:50:00it kinda started to snowball again, and now, okay, now, we're on a whole
different level here. (laughs) And, and it started to sink in, I think, to us
that, okay, this is a big deal. (laughs) Now, we got people--you know, it's not
just a Kentucky thing. It's not just a Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee
thing. And we got kids all over the place that are comin' behind us that are
gonna be affected by this. But, yeah, then, there was a lot of meetings,
conversations, and, okay--and, again, the decision about who's the attorney. And
I think we met with most all of 'em.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: And, you know, again, with us, it was like, okay, we're gonna have our
conversation with Shannon first 'cause we're not gonna disrespect her. And, you
know, Dawn Elliott, there was some conversations there too. And then, it became,
okay, so, now let's research these attorneys, and let's do some of our own--
01:51:00me, you know, doin' some own research 'cause we had a say in that too, who's
gonna be the attorney. So, I did some research, and, you know, well, this
attorney's got this experience, and that attorney's got that experience, and,
you know, it was just a back and forth. And, when it came down to it for us, it
was more of a, again, who's got a passion for the case? The havin' the
experience, and the knowledge, and all that is wonderful. Don't get me wrong.
But who had a passion for the case, and who was gonna be effected by it too? And
I think that played into our decision with, you know, who we wanted to hear the
case. Again, it's their ego and their career, but it's our lives. But, yeah,
then, it became a whirlwind 'cause--so, like I said, I think it was from
December, then, to April, and it went pretty quick. You know, you got the
holidays in there, and you got winter, and the roads are bad today, and I got to deal
01:52:00with that. And, oh, shoot, we got to do the Supreme Court in a month. (Franklin
and Boyd Franklin laugh) And I got to take off work, and we got to take care of--get--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --somebody to take care of the kids, and the dogs--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we gotta--are we gonna fly? Are we drivin'?
FRANKLIN: --and are we flyin'? Are we drivin'?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Who wants to go with us?
FRANKLIN: Are we gonna pack clothes? Are we gonna meet up there? You know, and
now, all of a sudden, it's like normal, everyday stuff that you take for
granted. You got to plan, but it's on a bigger scale, and it's a more important
scale. Do I have clothes to wear? Oh, my God. I've gained some weight. (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: We got a--I know. Oh, we gotta look right when we're sitting
there. We can't just look like... (laughs)
FRANKLIN: I got to dress up. I don't like that. (Franklin and Kasarabada laugh)
KASARABADA: What happens when you get to DC? Were there--there was a rally the
night before the Sixth Circuit oral argument. What was the schedule in DC?
FRANKLIN: So--go ahead.
BOYD FRANKLIN: No.
FRANKLIN: So, yes. And, again, you know, you got to do over there, you got to
do--it's almost like we had handlers. You know, you got to be here.
01:53:00You got to go there. You got to say this. You know, not, not tell us what to
say, but, you know, we got to talk here. We got to talk there. And, again, her
and I weren't real big on the media side of it, and--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --but we did have--
FRANKLIN: --we went downtown--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --our two brothers, Tim and Larry Love, had a guy documenting. Adam.
FRANKLIN: Can't remember his last name, but--yeah, he did a documentary.
BOYD FRANKLIN: He did a documentary--
KASARABADA: --oh, really--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --through them.
KASARABADA: Okay.
BOYD FRANKLIN: So, of course, he followed us, and--so, that was kind of cool
because we have that still, you know, and he did all that of everything from
eating, to goin' to which restaurant, to goin' to the hotel, to walking with us.
It was really cool there.
FRANKLIN: So, we're--you know, everybody had gathered and were campin' out, and
some of 'em had camped out for days.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: Like, I think the most--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --completely around--
FRANKLIN: --was, like, three or four days--
KASARABADA: --you mean--
FRANKLIN: --to try to get a ticket--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --around White House--
KASARABADA: --
01:54:00in the line.
FRANKLIN: Around the, around the Supreme Court, right--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --to be able to get one of the tickets that they were handin' out
because, again, it was, it was said to be the biggest civil rights case since
Loving v. Virginia. So, there were just people camped out. I mean, in tents,
campin' out, and I think the most was, like, three or four days. So, her and I
talked, and, you know, there were, course, every media outlet around, and, you
know, some people were givin' interviews, and we talked--we ended up bein' on
the cover of USA Today. But I told her--I was like, "Those people have been
campin' out for days in these conditions. They've been campin' out for days to
be able to get in to see, to be a part of this case. That's our people. That's
our people." So, we went down and just walked around and talked to 'em, and--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --stayed with them, and--
FRANKLIN: --yeah, and, you know,
01:55:00 we--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --people were ordering pizzas, and burgers, and we were chillin'
with those people.
FRANKLIN: And we--you know, we'd walk around and, you know, introduce ourselves,
or somebody from the media would recognize us, and they'd come up to us. We'd be
talkin' to somebody that was campin' out, and somebody would come up to us from
the media that would recognize us, and we'd be say--we would be like, "No, talk
to them. They're--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --the ones that's camped out. We stayed in a hotel. You know, they're
the ones that camped out. Talk to them. They've been here for three days out in
the weather.
BOYD FRANKLIN: We started askin', "Do y'all want some burgers? We'll get you all
some burgers. We'll get you some pizza. Do y'all have food? Do you got water?" I
mean, that was what we enjoyed, actually.
FRANKLIN: Yeah.
BOYD FRANKLIN: That's what we--
FRANKLIN: --we wanted to be with the people. So, that's how we spent that night before--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and we still have the picture of the one girl that was studying
to be a lawyer, and she had sat there all that time, and she was so into it. She
was so amazed, and she was gonna be this big
01:56:00lawyer, and we were so happy for her. And, you know, she's talkin' about how
she'd sit there and study while she sat in line.
KASARABADA: Oh, wow.
BOYD FRANKLIN: So, it was really cool.
KASARABADA: Wow.
FRANKLIN: I think she even had finals or somethin'.
KASARABADA: It was April, so--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
KASARABADA: --she would, yeah. (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: So, she was right there.
FRANKLIN: So, yeah, we did that. And then, of course, you know, we--the next day
was the case, but we were just always about--that's, that's our people.
That--they came here, and they went through what they went through campin' out
to support us. That--it's not the camera that we care about. It's that person.
It's that young girl that gave up a lot to be here. She's sleepin', you know, on
the sidewalk in a tent, tryin' to do her finals in law school, and, you know,
that was the kind of stuff that gave us, I think, energy and made us be
appreciative to be there. And, again, be honored to be part of it.
01:57:00And they're lookin' at us, bein'--you know, bein' talkative, and, "Oh, we're so
glad to meet you," and we're like, "We slept in a hotel last night. (laughs) You
were sleepin' out here on the street," you know. So, it--that was the good part
for us.
KASARABADA: That's really nice. And you--both of you do seem to get energy from
the people around you.
FRANKLIN: Right.
KASARABADA: It's real--it's so important to you, yeah.
FRANKLIN: Well, when--and, you know, then, the next day, the case--and we came
out, and, of course, we're all in line. They call it the scrum or whatever. And,
you know, the people--the attorneys and the ACLU was like, "Okay, you go over
there and get in that line, and they're gonna interview people." And, you know,
it's all the national news networks, and it was in every paper. You know, it was
in when the decision came out. But--and I was readin' headlines of different
papers, but the morning of the actual hearings, you know, when we came out from it--
01:58:00course, you know, you haven't had the decision yet, but the crowd was electric,
and they kinda funneled us over to this scrum, they called it, and we're
standin' there, and we're about four or five rows back, I guess, from the
microphone and the cameras. And I look over at her, and she's cryin'. And the
people down below are just crazy. You know, cheerin', and yellin', and screamin'
'cause they'd seen us when we came out, you know. And Shannon's with us, and I
look over at her, and it's just tears just rollin' down her face, just the
excitement of it all, and, you know, the bein' in the moment. And I grab her
hand, and I said, "Grab Shannon's hand." I said, "We're goin' down there." So,
we went down the steps and through the crowd, and, you know, people are talkin'
to us, and, you know, thankin' us, and talkin' to us, and pettin' us. And we made
01:59:00our way through the crowd across the street so that--and we could stand back and
look at everything that was goin' on and to go down there with the people and
talk--everybody had came to see it. They were a part of it. It was their journey
too. You know, it wasn't just our journey, and we always understood that. This
is not our journey. This is not our story. This is everybody's story. You know,
and there's been books written, and we've talked about, "Do we write a book?"
And it's like, everybody knows our story. We'll tell our story, you know?
Everybody knows our story. We've told it. We're--we don't have an
issue--(laughs)--tellin' our story, but will we one day? Maybe. But I think we
were in it for different reasons than most people, and, you know, we--like I
said, we would--(laughs)--we went through the crowd and went all the way through
the crowd, completely across the street, and stood
02:00:00there and looked back at what was goin' on so that we could at least take some
of it in. You know, most other people went up there and got interviewed and, you
know, went to the cameras and the microphones. We went, we went through the
crowd, and we went so we could look back and at least take it all in. So.
KASARABADA: That's beautiful. When Tammy comes back, I'm going to ask her the
same question, but what was it like to be in the chambers and seeing everything
that you did, seeing the justices sitting up on high. (laughs)
FRANKLIN: Let Tammy answer first.
KASARABADA: Oh, well, she's back, so Tammy, why don't you go ahead and take that one?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Well, like I was sayin' before, you know, pictures will never
ever do justice, and you can't take too many, I've seen. When we got in there,
we had our marriage equality plaintiff shirts on, and, you know, right
immediately, all the little
02:01:00guards were like, "Can't wear anything--"
KASARABADA: --right, with a message, yeah, yeah, yeah--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --you know, you don't even think about it, and because we were
there for that, we were thinkin' we were cool, you know? 'Cause--to let people
know, but you couldn't do none of that. All the marble, all the people walkin'
around, it was beautiful. We got to see all kinds of statues, and--but that was
the visiting part of it that time, wasn't it? Before we were able--
FRANKLIN: --once you got in the chamber--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --but, once we got down there, my gosh. It looked like five city
buildings on top of each other tall, just the pillar, and all of the
woodwork--the marbling, and the sculptures, and, you know, the judges are this
little to this tall, you know? And they were so regal up there, and we were so
happy to see certain judges, of course, the
02:02:00ladies, and Kim was tryin' to tell me who everybody was, and that's where
the--(laughs)--signing came in. You know, I was makin' sure who was good and who
was bad 'cause I'm horrible about knowin' things. So, she would check the good
ones--(laughs)--'cause we had a little pamphlet of all the judges on there. And
she's tryin' to check all the good ones, and I'm trying to see which one was
which, and--oh, of course, Mr. Clarence, he kinda slept through it. (Boyd
Franklin and Franklin laugh) So, we knew who he was pretty quickly. But, you
know--and over here, on this side, you could tell they were a lot of the judges'
wives or husbands sitting there in their own little square, nice chairs, and you
could tell some of the wives of the good or whatever would look at us and kinda
wink. You know, and it was so neat 'cause there was, like, this connection. They
knew who we
02:03:00were, and they were lettin' us know they were cool, you know? But then, there's
these guardsmen that are on every little corners, every little inset, in front
of you, behind you. I mean, and they're just strategically placed. We got to sit
up pretty close. Like, third or fourth pew back.
KASARABADA: Good seats.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: We had the good seats.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And we were even on towards the edge too, so we're just sittin'
there, and I'm tryin' to keep her--not fidget and not move around and look
around. Don't say hi to the--(laughs)--you know. Just keep lookin' straight.
And, of course, we had that horrible hacker guy.
FRANKLIN: Protestor.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Protestor. In the--two pews over, just screamed out bloody murder
all of a sudden. And we're not lookin' at him, so it's behind us, so it
02:04:00scared me to death. I just thought, okay, we're dead now. You know, 'cause, I
mean, he screamed in this echoing--you know, "Y'all are gonna die. You're going
to hell." You know, and he's notorious for doin' it, seemed, but we didn't know
that, and he had done it many times, and they just kept--picked him up and took
him right out the door, and he had screamed, like, through the whole entire building.
FRANKLIN: You could hear him screaming.
BOYD FRANKLIN: You know, so that was so chilling 'cause that--you know, you're
trying to--you're in the Supreme Court. You don't think nothin' like that. But
then, that happened, and you're like, oh, my gosh. This could happen anywhere,
anytime. You know, so, we got past that, and some of the judges laughed.
Some--(laughs)--of 'em--you know, they even kinda made a little joke about it.
But, man, was it regal, just to sit up there, and watch them, and listen to what
they had to say, and your whole time, you're sayin', "Remember this. Remember
this." You don't remember crap.
02:05:00You just got to go back to what they said, to some--you know, a paper or
somethin' because--
KASARABADA: --look at a--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --you just don't--(laughs)--
KASARABADA: --transcript or something--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --you just can't remember it, but it--the feeling, of course--
KASARABADA: --yes--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --will always be there, and it was nice. It was cool.
KASARABADA: Kim, what about you? You remember that exchange between Judge Sutton
and Judge Daughtrey. Do you have any similar memories of any exchanges or any
thing like that from the Supreme Court?
FRANKLIN: I--not a--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --I remember the whole commentary they had, but--
FRANKLIN: --it was--I think Ginsburg had a few conversations back and forth, I
think, and then--I don't remember as many from there because I was in such awe--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --I think, at that point--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --you really are--
FRANKLIN: --because--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --you don't realize you will be that way 'cause you psyche
yourself and say, "Oh, I'm gonna remember. It's gonna be so--"
02:06:00But it's like lookin' at a blank wall. You literally don't even know what is
hap--it's warped.
KASARABADA: Yeah, you're overcome by the moment and the--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --very--
KASARABADA: --the setting that you're in.
BOYD FRANKLIN: You can remember commentary. You can remember some of 'em laugh.
Some of 'em were funny. And we knew they were funny, but we don't know why they
were funny. (Boyd Franklin and Kasarabada laugh)
FRANKLIN: And my, my original major in college was law, so I was just in such
awe of where I was and just tryin' to, you know, let it come to me, you know?
The feeling. So, it's almost like if you're somewhere, and you hear something,
but, you know, if your ears are stuffed up, and it's, like, muffled.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: So, for me, almost everything at the Supreme Court was muffled because
I was in such awe of, one, bein' there, and I knew, again, this is a
02:07:00big deal. This, this, this--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and, of course--
FRANKLIN: --is a big deal--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --Mary started talking, and you're trying to listen. She's quiet.
She's very low-toned, so you cannot hear her, but we're tryin' to hear her, but
we know what she's saying. We know where she's goin' with it. And then, you'll
hear them answer a question, and, you know, she answers 'em perfectly. I mean,
she knew what she was doing. She was amazing.
FRANKLIN: So, I think--and, like I said, we had minimum pieces of paper and ink
pens, so I was writing plus or minus to her, whether or not the question from
one of the--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --right--
FRANKLIN: --justices or the comment was good or bad. So, I was tryin' to at
least keep her up, you know, as best I could understand it and what I thought,
so I had to write a plus or a minus 'cause she'd be like,
02:08:00"What's that mean?" And I'd be plus or minus 'cause, you know, like I said, our
sign--I can't sign, even though I tried. But, for me, it was more--the best way
I can explain it is that it was like a--the actual talk was muffled to me
because I was just so in awe of where I was, and, you know, it just--kinda take
your breath, and--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and when they--
FRANKLIN: --the energy again--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and, when you get there, you know, for that day, you're in a
line with all the people that's gonna go in there, and you're just robotically
put in there, and you don't have time to look, or talk, or ask a question.
You're just herded to your seat, and that's where you stay until they tell you
where not to be. And you go right back out, and you go right around the, you
know, taped-off areas. You don't stop. You don't coherse [sic] until you hit
that step.
FRANKLIN: I told her about that. (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: Openin' that
02:09:00door, and all of that opening and all of them people, total vibe. Total
different vibe. You were military, and then you were released. That's how it was
in your head. That's how you remember it. You were there. You sit there. You
minded. You did it. You got up. You herded back out. And that's all you can remember.
KASARABADA: And when you walked out, Kim was saying that you were--Shannon was
between you--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --oh, yes--
KASARABADA: --and you each took her hand, and you walked out together--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --raised it high and she was--
FRANKLIN: --down to the crowd we went.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Shannon was cryin' uncontrollably, more so than me. Well, then,
she cried. I'm cryin'. So, everybody's cryin'. I can't see. My glasses are
fogged. I think I had contacts. I don't--I think I lost a contact. And
everybody's tryin' to get down to that microphone to the media. So, you know,
again, it was all
02:10:00rush down there. Then, you talk. Edie Windsor was at the next time we went.
FRANKLIN: I can't remember.
BOYD FRANKLIN: We didn't get to go. Remember the--
FRANKLIN: --well, she was at one of the dinners we went to, but--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --oh, yeah--
FRANKLIN: --I was tellin' her how I took your hand, we went down through the crowd.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes, and we went down through the crowd, and it was taped off
with the good, and the bad was over where they couldn't get close to us. It was
the best feeling ever. So many people. You couldn't even focus--it was goin' so
fast--on one person. You just--they would touch you and reach out, and we're
just like, "We did it. We freakin' did it. We're done. We did it."
FRANKLIN: And there was--you know, from the crowd, again, there was so much
energy, and you know, we didn't know how the ruling would go down at that point.
It came quicker than anybody thought.
KASARABADA: But you made your case.
FRANKLIN: We made our--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
FRANKLIN: --case, and we knew we were right. We knew we were doin' the
02:11:00right thing. And it was like, this cannot go bad for us.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Right.
FRANKLIN: You know, this has to end good. It has to end good. And it never--I
don't think, at that--by that point, it ever crossed our mind that it would be
anything but in our favor. And you never know, but I think, in our minds, that
was the only possible outcome because we knew we were right.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah, it wasn't--we had no doubt that it was not gonna happen. I
never had a doubt it wasn't gonna happen then. I was just waiting for it.
KASARABADA: What was the rest of the day like? What--are you still scheduled
after the--there are still events and press that you have to do and things like that?
FRANKLIN: Yeah, there were different interviews, and, like I said, we went over
across the street and just--
KASARABADA: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --kinda looked back and took most of it in. But, yeah, there were some
other interviews, you know, meetings, conversations--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
FRANKLIN: --but it was in--the meetings
02:12:00were in two different ones, and I don't even remember if--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah, we stood--
FRANKLIN: --we were first or last--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --back with the people in--Michael Aldridge and all of us stood
over, and, and we just sighed. You know, we leaned into one another, and Michael
just hugged me, and I just hugged him, and he's like, "We did it. We did it."
And all we could do--we were exhausted, you know? Literally exhausted. Thirsty,
hungry, exhausted, and all we could think about is look. Look at it. You know?
And--but everybody was so exhausted. You know, your body really can only take so much.
KASARABADA: Yeah, you're kinda going on stress and--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
KASARABADA: --adrenaline--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --so, that's when--
KASARABADA: --up until that point--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --it all just released, at that moment. And then, I think we went
to get--eat, you know, with our favorite plaintiffs, you know, and just sit, and
we're still--
FRANKLIN: --I think it was the next day we went back and met John Lewis.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
FRANKLIN: Some of the senators.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah, we got to go--
FRANKLIN: --I think that was the next day, though. Was it that--? It might have
been that afternoon. It's
02:13:00a blur.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
KASARABADA: It's a blur. (laughs)
FRANKLIN: But it was either that afternoon or the next.
BOYD FRANKLIN: I think it was the next--
FRANKLIN: --I think it was the next day--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --day because we could either go to--
FRANKLIN: --that was that day--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --that day, but then--'cause that was the next day thing.
FRANKLIN: We had--the day of the hearing, we were--we got an invitation to the
White House since we were gonna be in DC.
BOYD FRANKLIN: It was horrible.
FRANKLIN: (laughs) We had to decide what to do.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Here, we could go to see Obama and Michelle or go to the Supreme
Court. I mean--
KASARABADA: --what a decision--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --really. (Boyd Franklin and Kasarabada laugh)
KASARABADA: We should all be faced with problems like that.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And I wish somebody could have decided for us, but we wanted so
bad to meet Obama. We--I mean, that was our--that's our thing. I mean, we
literally loved them both. But then, we wanted--you know, we had to be at the
Supreme Court. So--but we knew he would understand that, so--(laughs)--we were
like, "Well, I'm sure somebody'll tell him."
02:14:00(all laugh)
FRANKLIN: Yes, it was--and then, we're like, "Okay, now we got too many
decisions, and what do we do?" And we're like, "Okay, well, this is our case."
BOYD FRANKLIN: We got to do this first.
FRANKLIN: We got to do this case. And chances are, at some point, dependin' on
how this turns out, maybe we'll get another invitation--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --which we didn't, but it's out there. We're free now. (laughs)
KASARABADA: You're willing to meet with them still.
FRANKLIN: Willing to take some time.
BOYD FRANKLIN: We'll even make it a whole day for them. (all laugh)
FRANKLIN: But it--you know, it was like, here's two girls from Shelby County,
Kentucky, small town, and we got a decision to make. Do we take this invitation
to the White House, or do we go--a hearing at--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --same time--
FRANKLIN: --the Supreme Court that we're plaintiffs in? And even today,
sometimes, we'll look at each other and be like, "Can't believe it," you know.
What an adventure. But then, it was like, what do we do?
BOYD FRANKLIN: But then, we were like, "We know the Obamas will understand, so." (laughs)
FRANKLIN:
02:15:00We built this city. We got to go to this case. (all laugh)
BOYD FRANKLIN: So, yeah.
KASARABADA: So, when do you come home?
FRANKLIN: We were--I think we were there the next--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we flew back--
FRANKLIN: --day. I think that's when we did all the DC stuff, and then I think
we spent that night and flew back early the next morning--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --if I remember correctly.
KASARABADA: Okay. So, you got some sightseeing in?
FRANKLIN: Yeah, we did a little bit of sightseeing.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: And, you know--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --JFK--
KASARABADA: --okay--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we went to church, all that kind of stuff.
FRANKLIN: I'm a huge history buff, and all--you know, through school, you know,
you go on your senior trip. You go to DC or whatever. I'd never done that, and I
told her. I was like, "I just never thought it was that big a deal. It's
Washington DC. Yeah, they got big buildings." But it was amazing.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Oh, yeah, the Lincoln memorial and goin' up there. And, again,
you see it on TV, but when this big country girls get to them steps and figure
we got to walk that far, we'd liked to have never made it. (Boyd Franklin and
Kasarabada laugh) We'd like to have never made it. I sat down and
02:16:00let her go first with the other brother, and we were like, "Yeah, looks good up
there." Me and Larry were like, "We're big girls. We're not going up there."
(Boyd Franklin and Kasarabada laugh)
KASARABADA: It looks fine from here.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
KASARABADA: We get the point.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Take a picture while you get up there. (Boyd Franklin and
Kasarabada laugh)
FRANKLIN: Yeah, we did some sightseeing, and then we came home.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And then, of course, Martin Luther King standin' there, and, you
know, we just took everything at that part we could do 'cause we wanted that
feeling, and that was, that was even there. That feeling was there, standing
where he stood, you know? And--so.
FRANKLIN: Yeah, I don't think you can underestimate that feeling of the power of
the history, the power of who came before you, and bein' in DC--everybody should
go to DC. Everybody should go to DC, and I never said that before, but--and I
was a huge history buff. Everybody should go to DC. It's the right thing to do.
KASARABADA: So,
02:17:00that's April, and then the waiting begins.
BOYD FRANKLIN: But, you know, we didn't let it bother us. We went on again
with--we have lives still.
KASARABADA: Yes.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And we can't wait, but we also got to go on and do what we got to do.
KASARABADA: Life goes on.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Right. So--and, in the back of our minds, we were like, "It's
gonna happen. It's gonna happen." That's just the way we're gonna think.
KASARABADA: How did you hear the news? How did you hear about the decision?
FRANKLIN: Oh wow.
BOYD FRANKLIN: I was in--
FRANKLIN: --so--(laughs)--again, we're from Shelby County, so we're a good
forty-five minutes away from Louisville, and it had came down to this was the
last Friday--
KASARABADA: --right--
FRANKLIN: --that they were gonna issue decisions, so we knew it was gonna be
that day. We didn't know what it was gonna be, but we knew it was gonna be that
day. So, in talkin' to other plaintiffs and the attorneys, we kinda had it
worked out that we would--whenever the decision came
02:18:00down, we would all immediately go here. You know, we knew the address. We knew
where we were gonna meet. They understood we were a little bit behind, you know,
'cause we're comin' from here, and I was workin', and we had made it up--I got
on a SCOTUS blog--
KASARABADA: --okay--
FRANKLIN: --and I would continually refresh. So, I'm at work.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yes.
FRANKLIN: I--my work knew. You know, everybody knew the whole situation. We had
it planned out because, again, we lived about a mile down the road. So, we had
it planned out that, as of ten o'clock that morning or nine o'clock, whatever it
was, she would already be dressed, ready, in Shelbyville, Walmart, Kroger,
wherever you want to go. Just be ready. And, as soon as I text you, you come to
Simpsonville--that's where I worked. You come and pick me up, and we're
goin'--we're gonna jump on the interstate and go. So, we had it all
planned--(laughs)--out. So, I'm refresh, refresh, refresh, and, all of a sudden,
I see it, that there's been a decision,
02:19:00and I--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --like I said, I'm at work. So, I refresh, and, you know, I see that
it's in our favor. I just lose it.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: You know, I just break down.
BOYD FRANKLIN: She's crying.
FRANKLIN: So, I'm runnin' through--I'm textin' her, "Come, come now. Come now.
Meet me now. We won. We won." So, she's on her way to Simpsonville, and, by that
time, she's only, like, ten minutes away because of the way we had it planned
out. I go through my work, and just tears. So, they don't know if it's good or
bad tears.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah. (laughs)
FRANKLIN: They just know what it's about. So, my boss just waves at me. That's
it. Well, by that time, I think he had got a text--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --'cause he was kinda followin' it too. So, he just waves at me, and
off I go. So, by the time I get all through--I gotta go, gotta go, gotta go, get
out in the parkin' lot, she pulls up. Jump in the car. She jumps in the
passenger. I jump in the driver's seat, and we take off. And then, while I'm
drivin' now, she's textin', "We're on our way," 'cause everybody's textin' the attorneys
02:20:00and the--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and my phone was just--
FRANKLIN: --other plaintiffs--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping.
FRANKLIN: "Where are you? Where are you?"
BOYD FRANKLIN: Tryin' to do--
FRANKLIN: --and we're like, "We're on our way. We're on our way. We're here--you
know, we're at Hurstbourne. We're here." We kinda give 'em play-by-play on our way.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Friends and family, and I'm texting away, and--
FRANKLIN: --I hand her my phone 'cause my phone's goin' off. Her phone's goin'
off, and we're textin'. You know, I'm driving. (makes noise) (all laugh) Already
had it keyed into the GPS from, like, the day before, so all I had to do was,
you get, you know, and there we go. And then, course, we get there, and there's
a news conference. And while we're there, we get word that Kentucky will
recognize 'em immediately and start--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yes--
FRANKLIN: --issuing license.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Right there.
FRANKLIN: While we're in the news conference. So--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --Tim and Larry--
FRANKLIN: --Tim and Larry are with us. They were on the, the issuance case. So--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --Greg--
FRANKLIN: --we're like, okay, let's go. So, we lea--the attorneys tell the news
conference, "We gotta go. We--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --gotta go get marriage license." (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: And Greg Fisher walked with us. Like--
FRANKLIN: --so, we left. We left the news conference,
02:21:00walked out. As soon as one of the attorneys got that text that Kentucky was
gonna start issuin' license immediately, we were gone.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Walked straight through.
FRANKLIN: We just left out of the news conference, walked, like, four blocks to
where they could get marriage license, and then that was a--by that time, all
the media was there.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And we would--
FRANKLIN: --so, it was just--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --fill that room--
FRANKLIN: --constant. (laughs)--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and we just all gathered around Tim and Larry, and they got
their marr--they got their license right there in front of us.
KASARABADA: Oh, that's beautiful.
FRANKLIN: (laughs) So, that was a whirlwind day too, but it was just--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --but, again, it was that rush down the sidewalks. You're
walking. You're with the mayor--
FRANKLIN: --news crew's with us.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Everybody's just rushing, so.
KASARABADA: It's a, it's a movie moment. (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: It, it, it was. (laughs)
KASARABADA: And, you know, after the decision came down, you told The
Sentinel-News that everything is going to change, though, at the same time,
nothing will change.
FRANKLIN: For us.
KASARABADA: For you.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: Right.
KASARABADA: And so, what did change? What did you do after the decision?
BOYD FRANKLIN:Go ahead.
FRANKLIN:
02:22:00Well, for us, like I said, it was--everything changes, but nothing changes
because we had already been livin' our life. We were married. We were married
Connecticut, and, prior to that, even, you know, we lived our life like every
other married couple. So, for us, nothin' changed in our hearts and minds, but
it was everything around us had to change, and I think that's the way we looked
at it. But, for us, we were always married. We--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and there, that's when you started noticin' people changin' a
little bit. Some ecstatic, "Oh, we're so grateful, so happy for you." Then, the
ones that didn't think would happen were almost, like, "How dare you?"--
FRANKLIN: --bitter.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah. You know, 'cause they, in their minds, were like, oh, let
'em play their game because it's never gonna happen here. So, when it did,
02:23:00some people, I realize--I never would have dreamt it, and they would come
straight to me and be like, "How dare you?" You know, "Your mother would roll
over in her grave," or--and it just--it threw me so bad there for a while
because they were aggravated now. People that didn't want it were now mad
because it went through. So, it was almost like they were gonna--you know,
they--you kinda got scared a little bit 'cause you're like, "How mad are they?"
You know, 'cause you know how it can get. So, that's when we started thinkin',
wow, is somebody really out there, thinkin' that bad of us? And there is. So, we
had to watch kinda who we trusted before and not trusted now, or--and vice
versa. So, that what upset--that upsetted me because I was thinkin', you know,
02:24:00they used to be so happy for us. And, really, some of 'em were not.
KASARABADA: It sounds like some of your relationships--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
KASARABADA: --changed.
BOYD FRANKLIN: It did. Some that I thought would be there weren't, and the ones
that I never thought would were. I'm like, "What the--(laughs)--heck?" You know?
You're just--vice-versa'd itself. So, that was, now, my true friend because I
had to let the other one go because there was no support. They didn't believe in
some of the things I believed in, so I'm gonna go with the one that I didn't
think would and did. So--
KASARABADA: --people surprise you--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah.
KASARABADA: In both directions.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Very much so. So, that was what we were dealin' with. People were
now like, "Oh, it's done, and now I'm mad." You know, and churches around the
area--you know, we had a lot of flak with the churches at the Prides and,
02:25:00you know, different things, and you know.
KASARABADA: Did you all attend church, and, if so, what were your--was the
response from your church?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Well, we didn't have a specific church for those reasons--
KASARABADA: --okay--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --but, when we went to our Pride here, there was three--two major
churches that were completely in awe with us, and we were the ones that--we
don't like to push, so we're not gonna bother you because we probably think you
don't accept. So, we're not gonna push our beliefs, like we don't want our
beliefs pushed. So, we were, like, always respectful, but they came to us and
were like, "We're here for you." You know, what--and they didn't even know. They
didn't even understand it, but they were like, "Okay, tell us about it. Tell us
about your marriage. Tell us how y'all live 'cause we're right here
02:26:00for you. Come to our church. Worship with us. We're right here. We don't
understand the hatred that these--this church over here is spewing out of the
back of their truck, how horrible of the person that you have to be to demolish
a human like you were doing, and children, because, you know, it's Pride. You
bring your whole family.
KASARABADA: That's right.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And these kids were there, and they were sayin', "Your mother's
gonna go to hell," and these kids were around.
FRANKLIN: And start cryin'.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And so, you know, we're like, they don't even see us human, so
how can you even wanna even talk to 'em? 'Cause they're not gonna get it, and
they're not gonna listen because they're already dehumanizing these children of
their parents. So, this church is over here like, "How dare them? You know, God
does not see it like that. If it's true God, you don't
02:27:00see that, so we don't see that, and we're here." I mean, they came out. They
were supportive. They had the little flags, and they said, "Please come to our
church because we want to know more. We want to know how more we can help you.
Even in the support of the church of worshipping, how we can worship in a way
that helps you all as a couple."
KASARABADA: Wow.
BOYD FRANKLIN: So, that did it, and that was the Presbyterian Church, and then
the Christian church, even. He did a big thing on his podcast about bein' a true
Christian and how dare you single out and make these people feel like they're no
more than a human than you are. He had a big thing of it on his church website.
KASARABADA: Who is this? This is a local church?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah, it was the local Christian
02:28:00 church--
KASARABADA: --okay--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and I'll get-- I got his name---
KASARABADA: --and the pastor for it--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
KASARABADA: --had a podcast in which he--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and, and he made a video, and he put it out there, and he
played it, and he said w can play it at Pride against that church if we want,
put it up on a big screen towards them so that they have to look at him and all
that he says. So, there's so much more support than we thought, and now, it's
gettin' better, but there, for those three to five years, it got a little hairy,
I think.
KASARABADA: Did you ever feel in danger?
BOYD FRANKLIN: When I--certain people came to me, when we go to big things, I
get a little nervous.
KASARABADA: Like rallies--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
KASARABADA: --and things like that.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Because, you know, so much is happening, people runnin' through
the crowd. People are drivin' cars. People are shooting. You start to get to wonderin',
02:29:00you know, how people are turning. You don't really know 'cause the ones that
usually do that aren't the ones that you can talk to or face, so it does get a
little scary, I think.
FRANKLIN: And--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --like Thunder. We had a chance to go to Thunder through her
work, and I wasn't for sure if I really wanted to go. You know--
KASARABADA: --you mean immediately after the decision--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --any time--
KASARABADA: --or since then?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
FRANKLIN: Even since then.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah.
KASARABADA: Really?
BOYD FRANKLIN: This last, this last past, where they said there was over eight
hundred thousand people this year--
KASARABADA: --yes--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --I just--I didn't really want to go 'cause you don't know.
KASARABADA: Wow.
BOYD FRANKLIN: There's still that hatred out there.
KASARABADA: Wow.
FRANKLIN: And a lot of people don't think about it, but, like, when we were
lookin' for land to buy to build a house, we had to consider that 'cause we were
gonna be out in the country, out the county. So, we would go look at land, and
we would drive a mile or two in either direction
02:30:00and get a feel--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --try to look--
FRANKLIN: --for the area--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --for Trump signs.
FRANKLIN: Look--yeah, look for where they stood, you know, in their mentality.
And you can't tell necessarily by that, but we would get a feel, and, you know,
we're kinda both pretty intuitive. You know, we take in the surroundings, and
how does this feel to us? And, you know, we would even get out and walk around
the property we were lookin' at, and we would just stand and look, and can we
imagine ourselves here? Can we see ourselves here?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Does the neighbor--
FRANKLIN: --how does it--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --look like they'd be acceptable?--
FRANKLIN: --feel? And, you know, we--you shouldn't have to do that, but that's
part of what--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --but we have to go the extra mile--
FRANKLIN: --we still, to this day, think about. Well, not now 'cause we, you
know, found a place, but, up until a year ago, that was a consideration for us,
and a lot of people don't even think about that or be like, "Well, why do you
even care about that?"
BOYD FRANKLIN: Because, when we lived on Eagle Pass
02:31:00before we decided to build, we lived on a in-street and just had six, seven
houses for an in-road. Like a cul-de-sac, but it was a straight road. Our
neighbors back and forth. We had great neighbors across. When we got there and
we bought that first house, we didn't think about the gay thing then 'cause it
was city, you know? That's just--that's where our mind was. Our neighbor,
younger, middle thirties, awesome. That's the guy just put our fence in. He had
daughter--a wife and three daughters. So, you know, we were makin' sure they're
gonna be okay, and they come out full blast to support. Even the kids. "I'm
gonna make you rainbow cookies," or, you know, anything that--we would do all
kinds of things together with them, and they'd swim in our pool, and we became
friends. The other people accepted, didn't have--seem a problem,
02:32:00except for the one guy on the end. He kinda had a problem, but she didn't. Well,
then, there was an older couple on the very corner, and we didn't know how they
felt, but Courtney, our neighbor, just right here, told us that they was like,
"Well, we're glad they put up a privacy fence 'cause we don't wanna see all
that." But we would--we didn't think it at first. So, then, even the girls, the
little girls, the mama was teachin' them right from wrong, and--Elizabeth, they
call me Miss Tammy, and she's like, "Miss Tammy, we're gonna draw rainbows on
your sidewalk so the neighbor's not gonna like it." (laughs) I mean, you know,
to show support that--"And we're gonna do it over there. Maybe they'll start
liking the rainbow." Because she was raised right. She was shown that there's
diversity, shown that there's different--the world makes of all.
FRANKLIN: Kids don't understand hate, they're taught that.
BOYD FRANKLIN:
02:33:00 Right.
FRANKLIN: They're not born to hate.
BOYD FRANKLIN: But they were there, right there, to show all the support.
So--but then, there we were, thinkin', oh, I never thought that of Dick and
whatever her name was, Margaret, but they really have hate for us, and they
don't even know us. They hadn't--they met us once when we moved in. I answered
the door. Well, then, they kept seeing Kim--(laughs)--drivin' home, and--
KASARABADA: --they put two and two together--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --all of a sudden, they didn't like us. (laughs) But that goes to
show you, you know, I was fine until they seen me, that I had a wife, so.
KASARABADA: And, still, that is something that you have to take into account.
How are people--
FRANKLIN: --yeah, we still--
KASARABADA: --going to--yeah.
FRANKLIN: Yeah, it has to be a consideration for us, whether it's because we're
two females, because we live in a rural community, because there're still people
out there. It doesn't matter why. We still
02:34:00have to consider that. It doesn't rule our every thought, but it is a
consideration. You know, anywhere we go--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and it heightens--
FRANKLIN: --anything we do--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --on certain situations, you know.
KASARABADA: Like the ra--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we know when it--
KASARABADA: --when there's big gatherings--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
KASARABADA: --and things like that.
BOYD FRANKLIN: It's heightened automatically.
FRANKLIN: Yeah, and we will, we will plan if we go somewhere big--you can never
know what's gonna happen, but we plan when we go someplace like that. I always
know what's my out. If I need to get out quick, what is it? Where is it? Where
am I? How do I get her out? I just--I do that. That's just a natural thought
process to me, is where's my out? Where's my closest exit? What's my best exit?
And, if I'm over there, where's my exit compared to if I'm over here? So, we
just think about that stuff, and it's sad that--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --and that's where--
FRANKLIN: --that you have to, but we do--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we think of fairness a lot too. You know, Chris Hartman, and
he's our buddy, and
02:35:00we want it to be so equal that we can walk down the road holdin' hands. We can
kiss and not everybody fall apart, you know? That's our end, of course. That's
where we still wanna fight with Chris and hope the best for him because, all in
all, it's--we are married by law, but we want to be accepted by life. You know,
by people, not just the law, where I can kiss her and not think a thing about
it, 'til we're--somebody don't fell out on the ground because--(laughs)--they
seen us kiss, you know?
KASARABADA: So, if--do you feel like you could go in a town and hold hands?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Not here. Not like I--not like if--Connecticut, you had that
feeling because they were so ready for gay--accepting. I felt really close
there. You know, a place like Massachusetts, they're so
02:36:00involved. San Francisco. Those are the kinds of places you know are gonna be
okay, but I still am leery.
FRANKLIN: It's not to say we don't ever do it, but we are aware of our surroundings.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Or we look.
FRANKLIN: And I'll still, lot of times, reach and grab her hand if we're out
somewhere, and, you know, immediately, one or the--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --we look--
FRANKLIN: --other of us'll catch ourselves and look around. Doesn't mean we
don't do it, but we're conscious of the fact that we're doin' it rather than it
just be a natural--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah.
FRANKLIN: I mean, it is natural for us to reach and grab each other's hand, and
then one or the other'll be like--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
FRANKLIN: --you know, stop and look around, or--and it's not that we don't wanna
do it or are not gonna do it. It's we're gonna be aware.
KASARABADA: You renewed your vows.
BOYD FRANKLIN: We did. (laughs)
KASARABADA: When did you do that, and what was that like? Can you talk about it?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Well, we did it the summer after
02:37:00we came back from the ruling, the fifteenth. We did it the sixteenth.
FRANKLIN: I can't remember. (laughs) July 15.
BOYD FRANKLIN: We did. July the fifteenth, 2016.
KASARABADA: Okay.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Because our family didn't get to come, so we know a place out in
the woods that has a big, giant cabin. It has all kinds of stuff, and it was
quaint for us. We got barbecue. We just dressed up. We had all our family there.
Our kids were there to walk me down the aisle. I had both daughters on one side,
and they took me to Sam, and then Sam took me to Kim. So, it was--you know, and
she's there with her family and her mom, and, you know, it was just a little
gathering, and we said some vows. And we've talked so much, explaining our love
and everything, that--(laughs)--when we got up there, we were in, like, a little
gazebo, and
02:38:00it wasn't nobody was marrying us, so we just did, like, a little vibe for our
words together, and we just kinda looked at each other and--(laughs)--said,
"Well, everybody knows how we feel. (Boyd Franklin and Kasarabada laugh) Let's
just--we're done."
FRANKLIN: "Let's eat." (all laugh)
BOYD FRANKLIN: "We're tired. You know I love you. I love you. I'll always love
you. You're my best. We'll be together forever. Love you. Bye." (Boyd Franklin
and Kasarabada laugh) You know, that's how we did it.
KASARABADA: That's how you know you're married.
BOYD FRANKLIN: That's how we did it.
KASARABADA: That's true marriage right there.
BOYD FRANKLIN: That's what we did it. We just kinda took a few breaths and,
well, we know how this is gonna go. (Boyd Franklin and Kasarabada laugh) And
everybody laughed. They're like, "Yeah, there they are. That's them. (laughs)
KASARABADA: You all are old hat at this point. (laughs)
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah. (laughs) We were tired.
KASARABADA: So, you know, Kim and I were talking a little bit earlier about how
2023 is gonna be the ten-year anniversary of your filing your complaint.
FRANKLIN: Wow. Wow.
KASARABADA: And then, 2014 is gonna be the
02:39:00anniversary of Judge Heyburn's ruling in February, and then the Sixth Circuit's ruling--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --yeah--
KASARABADA: --in November. And then, 2015 is gonna be the ten-year anniversary
of the Supreme Court ruling. So--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --that is crazy--
KASARABADA: --we are coming up on a decade.
BOYD FRANKLIN: And we've been married for fifteen years July the fifteenth.
KASARABADA: July the fifteenth. So, you know, as you--we've talked so much about
it right now. You've been so kind with your time. As you think about--that's
nearly ten years ago. What does that look like to you now as you look back?
BOYD FRANKLIN: Again, it's--it looks like we found our forever home. We've
worked hard. Kim has worked hard to get this and be where we're sustained and
happy, and we can live the rest of our journey of our life out right here. We
have five
02:40:00grandbaby girls that you just seen one pass through.
KASARABADA: Oh, okay.
BOYD FRANKLIN: She's the oldest. She's eighteen. We have a fifteen, a fourteen,
and a nine, and a four. And that has led to this. You know, they've been
birthed. There's been growin' up. There's comin' out of the teenage years.
There's my kids that have gone onto their wives, and husbands, and boyfriends,
and, you know, venturing out and knowing they can always come here. This is
home. I do Sunday dinners every Sunday, no matter what. We cook. I cook. I cook
old-school Southern soul food, and they know that, and they know Mom's house
is--there's gonna be food at any time they need it. And we live for our kids. We
live for the grandkids. We live for each other,
02:41:00makin' it simple. We don't want it fussy. We don't want it--
FRANKLIN: --no drama.
BOYD FRANKLIN: No drama. (laughs) We don't--this is a drama-free house, except
for the dogs. But, you know, we want a garden. We were organic. We want to eat
well. We want to try to spend the--you know, one time, Kim--I was like, "I'm so
sad that I didn't come out early so that I could spend more time in life with
you," but she's always like, "We weren't ready for that time, you know? That
time wasn't ready for us yet."
FRANKLIN: Fate wasn't ready for us.
BOYD FRANKLIN: So, you know, I always wish that we did, but now, we just--gonna
take what we have and make a hundred percent what we said we were gonna do, and
we done it. You know, we've built a home. We've--(laughs)--won a case.
We've--and, now, that's what we did, so now, we can sit back and enjoy in what
we did. That's were we wanted to be.
02:42:00Not the girls on the corner. Oh, we're called the lesbos on the corner
by--(laughs)--some, but we call it home. (Boyd Franklin and Kasarabada laugh)
But that's just--that's what we wanted. We didn't want nothin' big. We
just--this is our little house that we worked hard for.
KASARABADA: Well, that's a beautiful note to end on. Is there anything else you
want to say? Anything? Any stone we've left unturned?
BOYD FRANKLIN: We have not. I think--
KASARABDA: --(laughs)--
BOYD FRANKLIN: --no, really. I think you've done an excellent job with your
questioning and what we can remember. You know, pictures was always my thing if
you need pictures, if you need anything to--I love memories. I love--and you've
done everything perfect, and I think I'm happy.
FRANKLIN: But if you need to talk to us again, we're--you know, just let us know.
KASARABADA: Thank you.
BOYD FRANKLIN: Yeah, I mean, if there's any more
02:43:00gift of gab we have, seems--
FRANKLIN: --you know where we live. (all laugh)
KASARABADA: Well, Tammy, Kim, thank you so, so much.
BOYD FRANKLIN: We thank you.
KASARABADA: I'm honored to hear your story.
BOYD FRANKLIN: We thank you for doin' it.
[End of interview.]
02:44:00
