Interview with Kathy Szinnyey, July 15, 2022

THOMPSON: Hello, my name is Mack Thompson, and today I am interviewing Kathy Szinnyey for the Disabled in Kentucky Oral History Project remotely over Zoom. The date is July 15, 2022. Kathy, I'm happy you're here. Thank you for meeting with me today.

SZINNYEY: I'm glad to be here.

THOMPSON: To start things off, would you feel comfortable sharing a little bit about yourself?

SZINNYEY: Sure. Just anything? (laughs)

THOMPSON: Yeah, whatever you want to talk about. Little introduction.

SZINNYEY: Okay, sure. Okay, well, I am sixty-nine years old, I don't mind saying. I'm happily married. I'm blind. My husband uses a wheelchair. I have a seeing-eye dog named Pete. I'm retired now, and I had a fairly varied work life,

which I can get into if you want. And I don't know what else that you might want to know, or you could ask me.

THOMPSON: Yeah, I'll--definitely. That's perfect, thank you for sharing. So I know that terminology has varied over time of what people are "supposed," quote-unquote, to say or what they feel comfortable--people feel comfortable identifying as. And I was just kind of wondering, like, as you go later into the interview, I was just wondering, like, what you prefer--like, do you like to be called having a disability, being disabled? Do you prefer just to be called blind, or is there something el--other terminology that you prefer to use with that?

SZINNYEY: I personally don't mind being called "blind." It doesn't matter me. I'm either a person who is blind or a blind person--that doesn't bother me. The only term that irritates

me--I don't like when people with disabilities are named by their disabilities, like "the deaf" or "the blind" or "the crippled," or--or, you know, nonsense like that. Or "the wheelchair-bound." But I don't mind being called blind, and I don't mind being called a person who is blind. It's fine with me.

THOMPSON: Thank you for sharing. So would you feel comfortable telling me a bit more about your story with being blind--like, were you born blind, or is it something that developed, or that you--happened later?

SZINNYEY: No, I was born blind. I'm one of those people you've probably heard of, one of those Boomers, who are blind because a lot of us who were born premature got

what's now called retinopathy of prematurity. It used to be called RLF, which we learned to pronounce very proudly at an early age: retrolental fibroplasia. (laughs) So it's like, ah, we can say that word. So--and it was really, really common in the late forties, probably up into the mid-fifties, maybe even longer, that--I know there are probably other causes for retinopathy of prematurity, but one of them, I think, had to do with--they just weren't sure how to control the oxygen quite right. And I was three months premature, and--as were a bunch of people I know, so that's what happened.

THOMPSON: Thank you for sharing that. So I believe you were, like, twenty when Section 504 happened? Or how old were you then?

SZINNYEY: I'm not su--that's probably about right. It may have been even a little earlier. But I'm not--I don't remember. I just remember noticing that we would be reading talking books, and I could get into that, unless somebody else has talked about that. And I remember they started mentioning Section 504, but I didn't pay a lot of attention to what it meant or what it was at the time. But I was--yeah, I was probably late teens, early twenties, I'm thinking.

THOMPSON: Yeah, no, you can talk more about the talking books if you'd feel comfortable sharing about that.

SZINNYEY: Okay.

Well, talking books--we blind folks have known audio reading a heck of a lot longer than Audible's been around, that's for sure. (laughs) And recorded books and all that. It was--it's a national program. It was started in the--thirties, maybe? Late thirties?--where books were read onto--I don't know if it was records at that point, maybe? And it was set up specifically for people who were blind. You had to apply for it, you know, or your parents had to apply for it. And the National Library Service, which is part of the Library of Congress, the National Library Service administered that program, the Talking Book program.

And Braille as well. I don't remember when the Braille libraries started, but the Talking Book Library I believe was in the thirties. And it's come a long, long, long way. You do have to qualify for it by being blind, visually impaired, or I believe you can be physically disabled, as in unable to hold a book, or being unable to hold it very long. And it's now come to the point where I can download books onto my iPhone. I mean, that's--we've come a long way from big old records with big old heavy record players to, ah, I can download a book. So that's pretty awesome.

THOMPSON: It's amazing. So do you, like, like to read, or--?

SZINNYEY: I love to read. Oh, God. I've always been a reading fanatic. I'm a Gemini.

It's (laughs) -----------(??)------------you know, you're just--my mom--I was born on my mom's birthday, and one of the ways we bonded was that she would read to me, and then she also learned Braille so that she could transcribe books into Braille for a school program that we had. And so yeah, I could still remember one of the first little tiny Braille library books I read. And I love using Braille and I love listening to books as well. I love them both.

THOMPSON: Thank you for sharing that, that's amazing.

SZINNYEY: Thanks.

THOMPSON: So would you say that it was easier to access books over time, like, excluding -----------(??) technology, or more--I don't know what I'm asking, I'm sorry.

SZINNYEY:

No, that's okay. I'm going to guess you want to know, is it easier to--to get books to read now or to get books? Is that what you--yeah.

THOMPSON: Um-hm. Yeah.

SZINNYEY: Oh, God, yeah. So when I went to UK, back in 1971, I--you know, we had to hustle readers like crazy. We had to find--there was a little bit of money that readers would be--that went through the rehabilitation program, which is, you know, one of the ways that you could get money to go to college, and they had this little stipend that you could give to people who read for you. So, you know, if you were doing a term paper or something, you had to hustle these folks and say "I'll pay you if you go to the library with me and help me find these books and then help me read them!" (laughs)

Or, you know, there may have even been a list of people who did reading back then, I don't know--the Handicapped Student Services may have had a list, but I'm not sure. That's it was called in the--I think it's changed its name since it used to be the Handicapped Student Services. But it was not easy, y'all. It was--and then--so we were hustling readers, we would try to get books also of course from the libraries or--there were organizations that if you sent the books in in time, readers would read those books onto cassette tape or onto reel-to-reel tape, even, back in the day.

And so, you know, it was, the Handicapped Student Services was pretty nice in that they helped do some of that coordination. They would talk to some of your professors and find out what the book lists were for that semester, and then they'd hustle folks to read those books on tape, so that was another way we could access books. Gosh. Now it's so much easier to be--as long as you have the right equipment, you can read books pretty easily, but there's still a lot of problems, especially, I would think, if you're wanting to do some sort of science, with math and some of the STEM stuff. I'm sure that takes some more work to transcribe all that. But yeah.

In a lot of ways it's gotten easier to access books and printed handouts. And, I mean, again, handouts, you know, professors were always having all these handouts, and you'd have to find somebody to read those. So. Yeah.

THOMPSON: Yeah. So I'd love to hear more about just, like, your time at the University of Kentucky, especially as it pertains to blindness and disability. Because I know that you've done some awesome stuff in your time there.

SZINNYEY: Yeah, it was a crazy time. (laughs) It was early seventies, we were still coming out of the sixties, you know? And the semester before I went to UK--I started in the fall of 1971--there had been

student demonstrations and security guards and all kinds of wild behavior that I was not involved in in any way; it was before my time. So by the time I got to UK, there was not so much of that going on, but there was still a real sense of activism, I think. I don't know what Jake Carnge (??) told you about me--God, I shudder to think (laughs)--or I--did you talk to Jake at all?

THOMPSON: Yeah, all nice things. He mentioned when, you know, with the dorm situation.

SZINNYEY: Oh, yeah, I'll definitely talk about that, because that was a trip. So, but before I get into that, there were other things going on, like, I used to hang out a lot at the--what do they call it now? It's not

the Handicapped Student Union anymore, it's--what do they call it?

THOMPSON: Wait, the student union, or the services?

SZINNYEY: The services, I guess. The Handicapped Service--

THOMPSON: Handicapped Student Services? Now it's the Disability Resource Center.

SZINNYEY: Okay.

THOMPSON: But, like, I mean, same thing, basically.

SZINNYEY: Yeah, yeah. And so I used to hang out a lot there. And, I mean, not just me, but a bunch of people. We would just--between classes and stuff, it was just kind of the place we would go. And they had magazines in Braille at the time, so I was always reading Psychology Today or Playboy. And those were the two--they may have added other magazines, but Psych Today was definitely my favorite. And, you know, Playboy was okay, but Psych Today was my thing. I majored in social work. I thought about majoring in psychology and realized if I ever wanted a job it would really take me forever,

because I'd probably have to get a doctorate or something, and I'm not that academic, really. So one of the things we would do is, we worked on a little project to try to put Braille on the classroom building doors, you know, put Braille numbers. And of course people would take them off, and, you know, we would label elevators and people would take them off, and--(laughs)--it was a valiant effort, I suppose. (laughs) We'd go around trying to label stuff. This is what the blind folks were going through. I mean, I can talk about people I knew with other disabilities as well, but--so there was that that was kind of a thing. We also--well, let me just talk about the dorm situation. So when I first went

to UK, guide dogs were not allowed in the dorms. And so I don't remember how all this came about, exactly, but Jake and my parents and I, pretty close to the beginning of the semester, my first semester there, were looking around for, you know, a college student to live, and we found this house on Row (??) Street. I am hoping this house is long gone; it was pretty much condemnable as it was. It was--(laughs)--because we couldn't get in the dorms, it was--this is what we found, I guess, in a hurry. I was in a house with several other people, students. I think there was a couple--there were some

girls who lived downstairs from us and a couple who lived maybe across the hall from me or something. The room was roach-infested and it was--I had my first seeing-eye dog, Bella; I had got her in the summer of '71. So I was really young and really new--you know, I was eighteen at the time. You know, when you're eighteen you can put up with stuff I don't think I'd put up with now. But anyway--(laughs)--I had this room, it was tiny. Had a big bed with a really horrible mattress, I remember. And in the winter, it had this space heater that turned out to be unvented. And it was a gas space heater, and I remember my German Shepherd would get her tail singed on the darn thing, her hair, tail hairs singed on

the space heater, which was very sad. It was a very strange place. We rented a refrigerator, us, me and the couple across the hall. And--oh, no. I know what it was. If--the refrigerator I don't think was a problem, but I don't know. We learned--we would make grilled cheese sandwiches using an iron. So if you ever are desperate and you want to make a grilled cheese sandwich, you can take a--you can take your bread and your cheese or whatever and put it under and iron and iron it, and it toasts it, and it's quite delightful, except that the wiring was so bad that it would always blow the fuses for the girls downstairs. (laughs) Just crazy stuff. It was nuts. My first semester was just nuts.

And there was a nut case landlord who had rented it to me, and I was very shy, I didn't know what to do, I was very naïve. But my parents and Jake and maybe some other people accosted this landlord--not accosted, but said, "We're going to meet with you, and this has to stop, you know?" Oh, I know what it was. I think probably we said "I'm going to break my lease," and he didn't want me to break my lease after the first semester, and we said "I'm leaving this place. It's just--I mean, the roaches, there's only so much you can stand after a while." So what I did--so I did. I got out of the lease. So my second semester I was still not allowed to have a dog in the dorm,

and I'll get into what we did about that, although I don't remember it super well. Second semester they said, okay, you can live in the graduate apartments. So there used to be--I don't know if Cooperstown still even exists; maybe it does. There used to be a place called Cooperstown, which was still on campus, but--and it had, it just had these little efficiency apartments or maybe one-bedroom apartments for graduate students. So I was allowed to live in a graduate student apartment my second semester. So that was, you know, a lot better. (laughs) And it taught me a lot about cook-- you know, I could cook for myself. And I still would use meal tickets and go to the cafeterias and stuff, but it was nice to

kind of to be able to cook and do that stuff for myself too. While all this was going on, especially in the second semester and probably the first as well, Jake and me and there was a--I don't know if Jake talked to you about a woman named Midge Ball, or Janet, Janice Faye Ball (??).

THOMPSON: I don't think he explicitly mentioned her himself, but I was looking through--he let me look through some old clipping books and I saw some stuff about her there.

SZINNYEY: Ah. I haven't talked to her in many years, and I'd like to see where she is, if she's okay. Last I knew she was married and living in Nashville. Anyhow, she and I--and in some ways--she was older than I was by several years, so--and she was the one who had actually

got me really excited about getting a seeing-eye dog. So she and I both would--you know, we got together. We actually met with Otis Singletary, who was the president at the time, and we got to meet with the dean of students--I can't remember his first name; Hall, I think, was his last name--and we would just meet with them and talk about having a dog in the dorm, and how it would be really important to do. And I don't know, again, if--because, you know, I was quite naïve about life back then. You know, I didn't think about laws, or I didn't know what 504 happened and what the law really said and didn't say and what the statutes were. I just didn't know any of that stuff.

All I knew was I wanted to be in a dorm, with, you know--that's all I knew. And I was willing to be the guinea pig, and I was willing to do all these things. So after various meetings--and maybe Jake remembers this stuff a lot better than I do; looking at your scrapbook, you can probably tell me lots of stuff that I've forgotten. But it was agreed that I would be their test case. (laughs) And so I got a letter, I remember--I got it over the summer, saying, okay, you can, you can go into a dorm. So my third semester, summer of '72, I guess, I moved into

Donovan Hall. I don't even know if Donovan exists anymore. I think so many things have been torn down, I don't even know what's there anymore. (laughs)

THOMPSON: I think they got rid of Donovan, but now there's another hall named Donovan.

SZINNYEY: Oh, really.

THOMPSON: Which is actually where I stayed my first year, so yeah.

SZINNYEY: Oh, really. So Donovan was okay, but for some reason, maybe because my friend Midge was there, I really wanted to be in Blazer Hall, which, I don't think Blazer's there either, but maybe it is. Blazer was, like, supposed to be one of the coolest dorms to be in. So--but my first year I said, okay, I'll be in Donovan. And those people watched me like a hawk. It is not fun being a first person to do things, but--(laughs)--sometimes you've just got to be. And you may know this, I don't know what experiences you've had, but, you know, I have a very distinct memory of--one time

I was washing Bella, that was my German Shepherd's name, I was washing out her dish, and I must have left a piece of kibble in the sink, and I heard about it. (laughs) So I had to be very extra careful with how my dog and I were in the dorm situation. But apparently we did well enough so that my third year, I was able to be in Blazer, where I'd wanted to be, and the rest, I guess, as they say, is history. You know, guide dogs are allowed in the dorms. So that was my big claim to fame, if there is any, is just being in that situation. So.

THOMPSON: Thank you for sharing that. So I was wondering, because I don't really know the timeline on this. I know there was, like, a student union at one point

for, like--Handicapped Student Union--

SZINNYEY: Yes. Yes.

THOMPSON: Was that there when you were there?

SZINNYEY: Yeah. The Handicapped Student Union was there. And--yeah. Oh, go ahead.

THOMPSON: Do you remember anything that they did or anything? If not, that's okay.

SZINNYEY: I don't remember much. I know--I mean, we were probably the group that went around and tried to put numbers on doors. I think that was a project. We said, "We're going to do this project," and I think that was through the Handicapped Student Union. I know--and I don't remember it very well. I'm sure that there was some infighting, maybe, but I don't quite remember. The people I felt the worst for, actually, were those folks who had to stay--if you used a wheelchair, you pretty much at the time had to stay at the

--oh, what's that place? Not the Carson Center, the Car--what is that rehab center out in Lexington? I think it's still there.

THOMPSON: I know what you're talking about, but I'm totally blanking.

SZINNYEY: I know. I'll think of it in a minute, maybe. Or not. But those folks had to be back at this particular center like at 6:00 in the evening and put to bed, because they couldn't be in the dorms, because the dorms weren't--well, they were accessible, actually, but for some idiot reason, I guess if--and I don't know if it pertained to just anybody who was using a wheelchair or just people who might have needed a PCA from time to time, but I remember it was nasty that those folks had to be treated like little children. You know, it's just horrible.

So I remember that was an issue. We probably--I don't know if we may have worked on or certainly talked about. And there was a guy named Jim Fee (??) who was a good pal of mine, had cerebral palsy, and Jake may have entered him--should have, if he hadn't--I'm trying to remember where he lived. He's an engineer, and he's been an engineer all his life. He was an engineer when I knew him, an engineering student when I knew him. So if Jake hasn't mentioned him, maybe he had a good reason to not, but Jim, I remember, was really quite an activist as well, so.

THOMPSON: That's awesome.

SZINNYEY: Yeah, I don't know if his last name is spelled F-E-E, I have no idea what his last name is spelled like, but

yeah, you could ask Jake.

THOMPSON: Thank you for telling me that and sharing that information and your experiences like that. So do you remember--I know--do you remember when the ADA passed?

SZINNYEY: In 1990?

THOMPSON: Yeah. Like, do you remember, like, the impact of that, and, like, the changes afterwards? Or is that [overlapping dialogue; inaudible]--

SZINNYEY: Yes and no. Yeah, yeah. I think I remember reading through the law. I was at that time involved with the Center for Accessible Living, maybe a little bit later than when the ADA passed. I don't know that it had a huge impact on me except that

--I mean, I was certainly glad to see it passed, it was a good second step or first step or something--and I could remember reading about, you know, what accessible transportation meant, or what these various types of accessibility were about, but I don't--it's not like I was in a big group that we sat and watched the signing or anything like that. I was, I forget. Yeah, I was doing my thing. That was--1990 was an insane year for me for various reasons, so it wasn't on the top of my list. But my husband uses a wheelchair, so, you know,

we would talk about various issues and really trying to do some more to make some places more wheelchair-accessible, if I remember. So that was a thing as well.

THOMPSON: Awesome. What's it like with you all with having, like, a blind person and a wheelchair user in a relationship? Has there been, like, accessibility challenges with that, or not getting that?

SZINNYEY: In a lot of ways it's really nice, because you kind of share the power. (laughs) You know, it kind of works out. Fred can drive--in fact, it's really cool. To make a long story short, we were in a car accident last year, totaled his car, our car, and so he uses a manual chair, and we--there's a cool thing called a--

I guess it's--I don't know if it's called a wheelchair topper or--I don't know. You don't see them around very much, but they're--you know, he really didn't want to buy a darned van. And he was getting tired of putting his--he had to always buy two-door cars so that he could sling his wheelchair behind the driver's seat, you know, between the driver's seat and the backseat. And it was getting harder and harder to find two-doors. So we had seen these wheelchair topper things; they're like toppers that people put their--I don't know, whatever, if you're camping, your boat on or something. But it's cool. It's battery-operated from the car, and it has a little chain that you hook onto your folded wheelchair, and it pulls it up into the top of the thing,

on top of your car, and closes it to protect it. It's like in a clamshell thing. And then you just press a button, and then it makes the chair come back down so you can get back in it. It's really cool. So, you know, we, I have certain advantages--I can reach for things or do things that it's harder for him to do, do some of the household things that are just more difficult for him to do. You know, he can read stuff--I mean, I--there are a lot of apps out there that I can look at a lot of things, but he'll say things like, "Well, you could use me to read that thing. You don't have to get out your phone to scan something." (laughs) So, you know, it just works out really well. If we're, you know, taking a walk or we're going on an

accessible trail somewhere, or maybe it's not quite as accessible as--I can still push him up hills and do stuff like that. So it just works out very nicely, actually. And we got married--well, we met in 1990, in fact. And then we got married in '94, so.

THOMPSON: That's wonderful.

SZINNYEY: Yeah. It's crazy.

THOMPSON: So you mentioned that you had worked for a while there with the Center for Accessible Living. I'd love to hear just like if that or other organizations that you worked with, and some of the stuff, like, disability work that you've done--?

SZINNYEY: Sure. Well, I was on their board for a while--not a real long time, and I don't know that I really did much with Center for Accessible Living, except to make some connections. But really, my work has been more on things like--well, when I left UK I got a degree in social work, and I did social work for quite a while. And in the summers I would work at the Rehabilitation Center for the Blind, which, at--here at Louisville--it's what it was called back then. And I had summer jobs in 1972 and 1973, where I was teaching, you know, like, typing. And in 1973 there was an amazing device that had come out called the Optacon. I don't know if you've seen one of these things, but they're--

nothing ever has come out quite like it. There's just nothing out there yet. I'm still waiting for someone to come out with something like it. What it was, and this was amazing back in 1973--it was a way that you could actually access the printed page directly. It didn't--it wasn't a scanner or anything like that. It was a little camera that you held in one hand, and while you moved the camera across the page, you would actually feel the printed letters; with your other hand, you had your finger in a little finger--it was like a little finger cradle, and as it moved your camera, it would translate those visual letters, printed letters, into tactical letters with these little tiny vibrating pens that would come up. So the term "Optacon" stood for "optical to tactile converter." So it's spelled O-p-t-a-c-o-n. You can Google it if you want. It was an amazing piece of technology, and the only thing that was annoying about it was that it would make this annoying buzzing sound as these little pens would vibrate. So it was a really big thing for blind folks for a while, and then it kind of faded when computers started coming in. And now there are scanners and OCR things, you know, where you can put your book under

the scanner, or--either with the phone or a, you know, a scanner that's attached to a computer. And you can read that way as well. And--but it's nothing like having that direct contact with the printed page. With the Optacon you could know exactly where things were on a page. It was awesome. And I wish somebody would come back and start working on them. People have kind of played with the idea, but nothing's really happened quite right with it. So that was what I--okay. So that's what I was teaching in 1973 on my summer job. I learned it, and then I was so excited about it that they paid me to start helping to teach it. (laughs) So then I worked

as a social worker in the general public for a bunch of years once I got out of UK. I worked the state government. And then I decided that I'd kind of had it with state government, and I became a massage therapist for a while in the eighties. I actually took a six-month course in Atlanta. And then I did that for a while and realized I wasn't a really great hustler. (laughs) It's just, you know, and massage wasn't what it is now. Now it's just so super popular. But back in the eighties, it was still considered quite exotic, at least in Louisville. And then I worked for the Department for the Blind in 1990--I got a job there.

And I worked there for five years doing counseling. And this was specifically for blind folks. And then I decided, being the Gemini that I am and can't stay in one place too long--no. (laughs) I decided to do diversity training for a while. So I got into teaching, doing the diversity groups, things like that. Conflict resolution, diversity, helping people accept each other kinds of stuff. And then, in 2001, I worked for the Talking Book Library for a while. They had one here in Louisville, and that was pretty cool. I was a

reader's adviser, and, you know, had to learn software so that I could check out books and do stuff for--again, this was specifically for blind folks. And then the public--the Talking Book Library kind of got pulled out from under us, and they made it so that the smaller libraries went away and there's only one Talking Book Library now and that's at Frankfort. But they found me a job in the general library system doing reference work. So I did that till 2018. And then I retired. (laughs) The end.

THOMPSON: That's a lot.

SZINNYEY: (laughs) So. That was my work career. And how I've stayed kind of involved with disability stuff.

My husband and I played around for a year or two with this concept of community rehabilitation, but we didn't really do much with it. Trying to set up something where we could teach skills and have other people--we called it Skill Share, and actually now there really is an organization somewhere called Skill Share, but it's not quite what we had in mind. And it didn't come from them knowing us, just coincidentally, I think. But it was--you know, we were trying to figure out how we could have people teach each other skills, and instead of paying money, we would trade time, and it would be, like, a timeshare thing. So if you look around,

again, on Google, and look for timeshare groups, not--or maybe that's not the word. Instead of using money, you're sharing time. And I don't know how popular those things are right now.

THOMPSON: That's really cool, thank you for sharing that. So, I guess, one thing that's--okay, I'm trying to figure out what question to ask next, because whatever I ask is definitely changing the topic a lot. I'm sorry about that.

SZINNYEY: Oh, sure.

THOMPSON: So I guess, like, I was wondering about just broader accessibility in Louisville. Like, right now and over time, if you feel comfortable describing that and how it is for you and how it could improve or how it has improved or gotten worse.

SZINNYEY: Oh, yeah, okay. So where I live, it's a pretty walkable neighborhood, and a lot of blind folks live in this neighborhood. In fact, when I was younger, we referred to it as the blind ghetto. Talk about internalized oppression, if you know that term. We don't call it that now. (laughs) It's just the--it's got stores, it's, you know, it's a walkable place. It's on--near Frankfort Avenue. And you may know Louisville enough to know something about where some of those places are. We have some audible signals, which I really like, because some streets are very, very busy, and there's a lot

of turning traffic, and it's really nice to have a good, strong signal that it really is, in theory--maybe not in practice, but in theory, safe to cross. And, you know, you still have to pay attention to what you're doing, but--and Louisville is--you know, there are some places that are pretty not-accessible for pedestrians, especially, like, if you're out in the eastern part of Louisville, where it's just pretty much been for cars and not humans to be walking. I wouldn't want to live out there. There's--oh. One of the things I did as a disability activist, I actually--and I have to say it was mostly me; not--not all me, but I was able to help to get

some crossing signals on Broadway to be audible signals. And you know about audible signals, right?

THOMPSON: Yeah.

SZINNYEY: Okay.

THOMPSON: I know that downtown Lexington has problems with them not working, but--

SZINNYEY: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the kind of thing where people need to just kind of call their Department of Engineering--their traffic engineer folks, which is what I did, and I actually made a connection with a woman there who was very nice. And I work best one-on-one with people, so she and I would email back and forth and back and forth. It took like three years or something--took a ridiculous amount of time for everyone to dot the i's and cross the t's and, you know, do whatever was needed to get audible signals on some of those streets on Broadway. Especially around by the public library where I worked.

You know, this is the thing that is--can be very frustrating about accessibility in general. It's like, I--I think the term "special needs" should really be taken out of the language, just should be totally taken out of the language. Because my need to walk safely across the street is not special. And so, you know, it puts the onus--when you say "special needs," it's really putting the onus on the person who wants to just do what people normally do. But it says, "That person's need is special--" well, it's not. My walking across the street is not a special need. And so it really irritates me that a lot of times the only way you can get a crosswalk accessible or a street accessible is if it's going to serve that one blind person

in that one neighborhood, or that's how it's looked at. And I think that's really damaging to people with disabilities who are simply wanting, you know, civil rights--the right to cross a street safely, I don't think should be so special. (laughs) You know. Also, web access, or access to print, is still really a struggle. We're always working on, you know, the blindness organizations are working on just getting a website accessible. And here--here's the thing that I think

happens, Mack, so much--and you're probably aware of this, but whether it's wheelchair access or blindness access, what happens is, people create this wonderful thing, like a gorgeous building with--or a wonderful website, and bef--and instead of making it universally accessible from the very beginning, they get really ticked off if after they've created this beautiful thing and discovered, like, "There's a ramp--oh, look at this beautiful ramp, but there's a step at the top of the damn ramp," or someone creates a website that's got all these beautiful graphics but a blind person can't read it because you can't get to the text, or it's

in some weird JavaScript or something, then the designers or the builders get really pissed off. It's like, well, you know, "we made it accessible"--well, no. You didn't. (laughs) If you had started from the beginning, you know, the old "not about us without us" chant you have probably heard, maybe, maybe this could have been done a whole lot better and a whole lot cheaper, instead of you having to go back and renovate something. It's just really hard to get the general public to understand that we don't have special needs, that we want universal access. Universal design. So there. I've said my thing. (laughs)

THOMPSON: How have you--

I guess this is more recent history, definitely; like, partly history at this point is still going on, but I was wondering how the COVID-19 pandemic has impacted you, perhaps. Or the broader disability community, if you feel comfortable talking about that, but definitely you.

SZINNYEY: Yeah. It hasn't really affected me much at all. I've been retired since 2018, so, you know, that's just made it fine for me--I don't have to--you know, I didn't have to go to work wearing a mask or use public transportation wearing a mask unless I just really wanted to. But I hardly have needed public transportation. Either I go on foot or my husband and I, you know, go somewhere together. But we didn't get out that much. Thank God for Instacart and all the,

you know, Uber Eats and all those delivery services. They have been incredibly helpful. I know that for blind people, probably there have been a lot of problems, especially if you live by yourself, to be able to get into a doctor's office or get somewhere. I'm--or, you know, you can't afford those kinds of services, like Instacart and those kinds of things. I'm sure it's been really, really tough on people with disabilities, especially--if you lived in a rural area, I would think it would be pretty hard. But for me personally, it's not, frankly, had a huge--it had a huge impact in that

, you know, we--well, Fred, my husband and I don't go out and eat that much because we'd just rather cook our own stuff and it's cheaper. But I remember the first time I actually went, set foot in a restaurant, mostly to just pick up a takeout, actually. The place was crowded and full of people, and it, like, freaked me out, because I wasn't used to being around that many people anymore, and I'm already an introvert as it is. (laughs) But I had like almost a physical reaction to it, because I hadn't been around that many people in months. You know, it was really weird. But--so that's kind of how COVID affected me. And I've had it. I had all my shots, but I still got it a few weeks ago.

THOMPSON: Sorry to hear that.

SZINNYEY: Ah, it's all right. I'm all better. And actually,

I was less sick with that than I have been when I've had the flu occasionally. (laughs) Even when I get vaccinated for that, so it's kind of strange.

THOMPSON: So I guess this is just, like--could we go into some broader questions, just to, like, fill this out?

SZINNYEY: Sure.

THOMPSON: Just starting off, do you have any advice for someone who recently became blind or got diagnosed with a disability?

SZINNYEY: Oh, yeah. I think the first thing you probably need to do is learn some skills. I mean, one of the things that I did when I was working at the rehab center as a counselor--I mean, you know, you're dealing with two things. You're dealing with

the grief as you're dealing with your loss, and you're also dealing with, you know, building up some skills. Learning how to live differently, and understanding that you can live differently, you know. Which is really hard for people to believe, you know, especially if they've never been around much with people with disabilities of any kind. So, you know, I have a whole lot of disagreement, generally, with the governmental agency for people with disabilities, but it's better than not. I always suggest people call and get an evaluation from the rehab center that might deal with whatever disability

they might have. And so that's, I think, probably one of the first things, you know? And I certainly would be getting second opinions from doctors, you know, which, you know, you probably should anyway. By the way, the name of that place was Cardinal Hill I was trying to remember. Earlier, when we were talking about the kids who had to go to bed at 6:00, yeah. Anyway, that was Cardinal Hill, so. And I don't--I think Cardinal Hill's still around. But, you know, that might be a place to call if you use a wheelchair and you need to learn some skills. Now, the Veterans' Administration has some great rehab programs for people with different disabilities, so if you're a veteran, you know, I would start there, probably. But the more you can get up on your feet,

as it were, or in your chair, or whatever, and learn how to take care of yourself to get at least some of that independence back, the better you're going to feel about your life and yourself. And I just think that's where you have to start.

THOMPSON: Thank you for sharing that. I guess this is a super-broad question, but what do you wish, like, able-bodied or sighted people knew about being blind or just broadly having a disability?

SZINNYEY: Ah. It's a really good question. I guess the biggest, the broadest answer to that broad question--(laughs)--is to understand that we are human beings, and

um, to not assume things. I--and that's, you know, that is a really stupid and easy thing to say, but--and the other thing I would say is that, don't assume that I need your help. And you're welcome to ask me if I need it, but believe me when I tell you whether I need it or not. This is what--I used to do some trainings for nursing homes, and I would always say to those aides, God bless them--they've got enough hell to deal with in their lives--but I used to say, you know, feel free to ask a blind person if they need your help, but believe them if they say no. (laughs) And, you know.

It's--you know, just try not to assume. And that's the way--you know, I mean, I deal with people with other disabilities as well, and I'm sure I assume things that I shouldn't. It's like, you know, you assume things with anybody who's, quote, "different" from you. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them, it's just that they're different. So.

THOMPSON: Definitely a learning curve and, like, a practice situation, because it's so easy to say, but it can be difficult for people to do sometimes.

SZINNYEY: Oh yeah. Because they have their own fears and their own internal dialogues. They're running. And depending on the day--I don't lose my temper as much as I used to with people, and I think your brain softens as you get older and

you mellow a little, but that doesn't mean that I'll--you know, I really try not to put up with too much nonsense from the general public if I can help it.

THOMPSON: Speaking of, I'm so sorry. I asked my--I'm at my family home right now and I asked my brother to be quiet, and then he brought a friend in and started being loud again.

SZINNYEY: Oh. I can't hear it.

THOMPSON: Okay, good.

SZINNYEY: He's probably distracting you more than he's distracting me. (laughs)

THOMPSON: They started, like, yelling about bottle rockets or something, so I'm mildly concerned, but it's fine.

SZINNYEY: Well, good.

THOMPSON: -----------(??)---------- But anyways, what I was going to ask is, oh--some of my other interviewees talked about, like, aging with a disability, and I thought it would be interesting if there was anything specifically with, like, with you being blind, if that might--I thought that would be a different perspective

if there's anything that's happening or that you're experiencing as you get older, culturally or physically or anything with that.

SZINNYEY: Huh. Yeah. That's an interesting question. You know, I--(laughs) I don't know. I don't think I walk as fast as I used to, and I have to work with my balance more. And I have a nutcase seeing-eye dog these days who is a really great dog, but he can get a little--he's real--he's like a little cocky twelve-year-old or something. He's really full of himself. So he can sometimes do some stupid things, and as I get older, you know, I have to be a little bit more careful so he doesn't jump or do dumb things that mess with my balance, but. (laughs) My balance isn't horrible, but it isn't great, and I need to, I guess,

get back into yoga or something. But as far as being--the blindness is concerned, there's really no--no difference. I mean, I feel like I can handle myself as well now as I ever have, really, as a blind person. Because it's very different to be a blind person, older blind person who's been blind all her life than it is to be an older person who's losing their sight. That's a very, very different situation.

THOMPSON: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

SZINNYEY: Sure.

THOMPSON: Is there anything else you'd like to discuss that we haven't really talked about yet or haven't discussed in enough detail?

SZINNYEY: Oh, gosh, I don't know. (laughs) I honestly can't think of anything in the moment,

but if there is, or if you have more questions for me that you think of, you know, text me or--did I give you my phone number? Oh, yeah, you had my phone number, you called me. That's how I ignored you so many times, until I decided to actually answer my damn phone for you. (laughs)

THOMPSON: You're good. (laughs) It's good.

SZINNYEY: So, you know, if you think of something or you want to just text me or email me, unlike a lot of people my age, I do like to text, so it's perfectly fine if you think of something. Yeah, I'd love to meet you one of these days somewhere, some way, because this has been really fun. And I want to keep following up with your project. And I don't know if you'll keep in touch with folks, or--

THOMPSON: Yeah, I'll stay in touch as things go along.

Definitely. Thank you.

SZINNYEY: Yeah.

THOMPSON: It was nice talking to you. Thank you for sharing all this and being here today.

SZINNYEY: Well, absolutely. And I hope you have fun with your project. It sounds wonderful, and maybe sometime you can, I don't know, just let us know where we can find these things so we could start checking them out ourselves. That would be cool.

THOMPSON: Will do, definitely.

SZINNYEY: Okay.

THOMPSON: Yup.

SZINNYEY: All right.

THOMPSON: And also, do you--that form? Yeah.

SZINNYEY: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do that thing for you. I'll actually do it when I--you know, and not forget about it or something.

THOMPSON: Yeah. (laughs) Thank you.

SZINNYEY: Okay. (laughs)

THOMPSON: Are we good if I end the recording now?

SZINNYEY: Sure.

[End of interview.]