Interview with James Palmer, April 12, 2022

Interview with

James Palmer

Interviewed by

Morgan Crossin

April 12, 2022

Date of Interview

Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries

Vietnam Oral History Project

Morgan Crossin: Hello, my name is Morgan Crossin, and I am conducting an interview for West Chester University's Honors 351 class project about the Vietnam War. I'm joined by James Palmer where we are conducting this interview through Zoom. This interview will be going to deposit at the University of Kentucky's Louis B Nunn Center for Oral History Database. So starting off, James, would you like to introduce yourself?

James Palmer: Sure. My name is James Palmer. Um, I am a, now a lieutenant colonel in the Army Reserve. Um, I, when I was a first lieutenant in the Army, Army Reserve, I served as a helicopter pilot in the Republic of Vietnam. Uh that was from 1968 to 1969. Most of my career I was a helicopter pilot with and mostly with the Army National Guard after I was released from active duty.

Morgan Crossin: Alright, and so starting off with your early life, um, where and when did you grow up?

James Palmer: I'm the helicopter pilot, I never grew up.

[Both Laugh]

James Palmer: Did you ever hear the line? Well, when I was young, I told my mother I wanted to be a helicopter pilot, when I grew up I wanted to be a helicopter pilot. She said, You can't do both.

[Both Laugh]

Morgan Crossin: Oh, is that like a common phrase?

James Palmer: Uh its it is. It's a common helicopter pilot joke. So um actually, I was born in Philadelphia, grew up in Langhorne, Pennsylvania, graduated from Neshaminy High School, Um went to Penn State both at the, what was then the Ogantz campus is now the Abington campus for two years and then at University Park for two years. Um, On graduation, I um I took on a commission as a second lieutenant of Arbor Branch in the Army Reserve with the because I graduated from the ROTC (Reserve Officer Training Corps) program. Um I was I graduated in 00:02:00December of 1966, in January of 1967. I entered a, a three year active duty tour um I was, my ROTC commission required me to go two years. I signed up for a third year so I could go to flight school. Um in the army, I my first year. I was in training as an armor officer and then went to flight school for eight months or so. Um, went to Vietnam in the end of, the beginning of February 1968, left in February 1969 um and served with the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, who worked mostly uh in III Corps [Third Corps], the area immediately north of Saigon. Um I, and by that time, I was grown up. [Pause] So. Or

Morgan Crossin: So um, what did your parents do for a living?

James Palmer: Ask your question again, please.

Morgan Crossin: uh what did your parents do for a living?

James Palmer: Oh, eh let's see. My father was a weaver. Uh my mother was mostly a housewife. As later, when I became a teenager, she became a sales clerk at a a department store. She was. She was part time. My father was full time. He was, uh, he was not a college graduate. Neither of them were college graduates. In fact, I'm not sure either of them graduated from high school.

Morgan Crossin: So growing up, um when did you first hear about the war in Vietnam?

James Palmer: When did I first hear about it? Hmm. Probably. Well, I was an ROTC cadet from 1961 to I'm sorry from 1962 to 1966, so probably during that time um 00:04:00when they reminded me there was a war on and I was likely to be sent to it. Um, in [Pause] I'm guessing that student activism against the war, um you will recall or know already that the students um students generally uh were were opposed to the Vietnam War at least more towards the end. But it generally began in about 1966, 1967. So at the time I graduated, there was. The opposition to the war was not particularly widespread. The opposition to the draft was widespread. I remember at Penn State there were a number of demonstrations where people burned their draft cards, which was a fashion at the time, draft cards 00:05:00being that document the government gave you uh when you registered for the draft, the draft being uh a requirement to join the army, a requirement to join the army, if the army, if the government sent you to do it. The draft, the draft, as you might imagine, was quite unpopular, particularly when it was a war on. So um I was not subject to the draft because I was an ROTC cadet deep in my heart of hearts. I wonder if I would have if I would have had a military career if there was not a threat of the draft behind me. So people say thank you for your service. I point out that uh my, volunteer volunteering to defend the country was not, no, I'm sorry that my decision to defend the country was not entirely voluntary.

Morgan Crossin: As so you spoke about um that at Penn, there was like there was 00:06:00uh widespread student activism.

James Palmer: I wouldn't call it wide, hmm. I knew, I knew a lot about it, uh but I was at the on the Penn State and Penn State campus, not the Penn campus

Morgan Crossin: Mm okay

James Palmer: Okay, the people people from Penn would kind of look down if I if I suggested I went to Penn [laughter] Ah anyway, um there were it was widespread in the in the. Sense that it was uh [Thinking] it drew a lot of publicity uh, it was well, well covered, the demonstrations were loud and active, but I don't I don't recall that a majority of the students were opposed to the war. At least 00:07:00this, again, what I was last there in '65 '66. You may recall that the war was a small, a relatively small, small level operation. Um uh, In prior to about '65, when the President sent a [chuckle] great build up had a great troop build up. Um, so the, the war wasn't that big. The demonstrations were not that extensive. Can I can I back backtrack on one of my other answers?

Morgan Crossin: Of course, of course.

James Palmer: I remember in high school history I made a speech about Vietnam. Um, so I probably knew a little bit about that.

Morgan Crossin: Oh!

James Palmer: I remember uhh, one of my other students identified me as "Mr. South Vietnam."

Morgan Crossin: [Laughter] um

James Palmer: That would have been the, '59 '60 something like that.

Morgan Crossin: Oh, wow.

[Laughter]

Morgan Crossin: No, I mean, knowing about the war um in '59 is is something. Yeah.

James Palmer: Yeah, the war, eh, depended on when you decided, when um uh. Depended when you date it, the war dated perhaps as early as 1946 so.

Morgan Crossin: Yeah

James Palmer: Ok. From the NVA (North Vietnamese Army) point of view, it was 1946 anyway.

Morgan Crossin: Um so what were your thoughts on the conflicts um before going in, like in high school or at university?

James Palmer: Hmm. [Pause] Well, I went because I had a legal duty to go, um as I said before uh, if the choice was defend the defend the nation or go to jail, I would defend the nation. Um, I thought. [Pause] I had. It was my impression, 00:09:00generally, prior to going to the war that people knew that the government knew what it was doing, that the war was necessary to I believe contain contain the spread of communism. By the time I finished the war, uh I suppose the goals I still believed in the goal somewhat. I was a little more skeptical, but they knew what they were doing, however. How's that?

Morgan Crossin: Its good. Um, so moving on um to uh actually getting involved in the military, um why did you decide to pursue a military career?

James Palmer: Uhh, well, I started well again, there was a draft, so I had to do 00:10:00something about the military. I and everybody else between the ages of 18 and 26 had to do something about the military. Uh Penn State at the time was obliged to teach two years of ROTC or with uh they were obliged to teach it, and all students were obliged to take it. The advanced ROTC program was years three and four. Uh I guess I enjoyed what I was doing at ROTC. The advanced program paid money and that helped me get through college um and um I was enthusiastic about it. Um, I went, I was on active duty. I wanted and then after active duty, I wanted to go to graduate school, specifically law school, and um I enjoyed flying helicopters. Um, it's fun that and uh I I stayed with the Army National 00:11:00Guard because, because it was fun and and they paid me well, getting, helping me get through law school. Additionally, although that didn't cause me to continue my military career, a great deal of my graduate school was paid by the G.I. Bill uh for because I because I had served on active duty. Anyway, I stayed with the National Guard flying helicopters um while I uh engaged in the practice of law um and eventually got promoted, moved up and moved up a couple of ranks um and. [Pause] Stayed at that point because I was able to retire, if you stayed 20 years uh, you could you could draw a pension for the rest of your life, after after you retired

Morgan Crossin: Stayed 20 years in the reserves?

James Palmer: Um, what you had to get was. Well, yeah, it was a different, different schedule. If you stayed 20 years active duty, you would retire on half pay uh so that if you were earning at the time, I would guess a lot of soldiers were earning twenty thousand dollars a year at the time you would retire, you would earn uh ten thousand a year. I think if you stayed longer, you would get a little more. A reservist earned umm was able to retire after he he was eligible to retire after 20 years and they were, what, 20 years of enough service. You got points for doing retirement duties. You got repoi- you had typically a reservist would work one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer. So a you would get retirement, you would get points for going to those meetings and you 00:13:00would get points for getting for going on an annual training in the summer. Additionally, uh I would get points for additional flight time. If I had enough points, and I think the minimum was 60 points. You had what was called a good year and if you had 20 good years, if you could retire.Uh the kicker was that you couldn't draw the draw the salary, you couldn't draw the retirement payment until you were 60 years old. So if you served 20 years from age 22 to 42, you were eligible to retire, uh but that did not put money in your pocket until you were 60.

Morgan Crossin: Oh, I see, I see. So uh you mentioned you wanted to fly helicopters because it was fun?

James Palmer: Yeah

Morgan Crossin: Is that why you saw what you like-

James Palmer: Well,

Morgan Crossin: signed up to be like a gunship or like be a pilot?

James Palmer: Um. There is a status attached to being a pilot, at least in my 00:14:00own mind. "Hey, I'm a pilot." Um, It certainly beats some of the other things one would do as an army officer. Um, it was frankly more exciting than managing the post exchange uh or working in the Finance Corp. Um It was also less less dangerous and more comfortable um than engaging in ground combat. I recall a situation, I was I was an armor officer um there is now the army now has an aviation branch, but did not when I was uh in Vietnam. So I was an armor officer and trained as an armor officer, essentially leading leading tank and armored cavalry um units. And we call, I was out of the mission one fine day and I ran 00:15:00into another lieutenant um in the same situation as me but he had not been, uh in slept that he had not slept in a bed for three weeks or had not taken a shower for three weeks. And frankly, he was in more danger than I was, um usually because he was on the ground. Uh when I when I got in danger, I could fly away. Um and I said there there,

[Both Laughter]

James Palmer: there, there uh. But for Aviation, but for flight school would go [Unintelligible]. So it was comfortable I could get back to base camp most nights and sleep on semi clean sheets.

Morgan Crossin: Um and you said you went to um eight months of training to be a pilot?

James Palmer: Yeah.

Morgan Crossin: How was that experience?

James Palmer: I'm sorry?

Morgan Crossin: How was that experience?

James Palmer: How? Well, it was hm. Eye opening. Among other things, flying a 00:16:00helicopter takes a great deal of control touch. Um if you move the controls well, you've got to learn the controls. Uh the main control of the helicopter is called the cyclic. And if you let go of the cyclic for more than 10 seconds, you're in trouble. You've got to keep that, you've got to keep constantly on it. If you move the cyclic for more than about two inches, you're in trouble. Uh if you are hovering the aircraft and you move it, can you see my hand? [Motioning holding a Cyclic]

Morgan Crossin: Yes.

James Palmer: More than that if you move more than that [Moves hand slightly to the right] you're going to lose control the aircraft, uh if if you think about going right and the hover, you're going to go right. Um so, and that control touch takes a couple of hours uh to gain. We. I work at a helicopter museum that used to have a flight school across the way, and I would watch their new pilots 00:17:00do this, do the same helicopter dance that I used to do, flying all over the place, trying to control the helicopter. So that was an eye opening experience. It got. More uh complicated and more exciting uh or interesting from time to time, I should tell you that I was I spent the first four months of flight school in basic flight training at Fort Wolters, Texas, which is west uh about an hour west of Fort Worth. I flew. What were called OH-50? OH-23 helicopters? Um have you seen. Goldfinger, an early James Bond movie.

Morgan Crossin: Yup

James Palmer: OK. The helicopter there was the one I flew.

Morgan Crossin: Oh yeah?

James Palmer: The OH-23 and Hiller Raven [Helicopter] um and I flew that, usually with an instructor pilot, sometimes with a, another, another student 00:18:00pilot. And very often solo, um, to to first learn to fly. Um we had a tradition when we first solo'd Uh that is to say flew, flew on our own. The tradition was to throw uh new solo pilots into uh the swimming pool at the Holiday Inn in Mineral Wells.

Morgan Crossin: [Laughter]

James Palmer: The bus would stop and the new pilots would get out and we'd throw them in. And we had base, we had baseball caps on uh and we had special wings. We sewed onto the hat uh or wings with an S in it, solo wings. And they were. It was an accomplishment to get those. The student who last solo wore his wings upside down or was compelled to wear his wings upside down.

Morgan Crossin: [Laughter]

James Palmer: Hey, you know uh. Once, lets see, done. Yeah when I was finished 00:19:00for Fort Walters, I transferred and moved to Fort Rucker, which is in southeastern Alabama, in the vicinity of Dothan, where I learned to fly on instruments in what was uh a Bell 47 um[Helicopter] and then transferred to the UH-1, which was the army's most common helicopter, probably is the helicopter that it it has used the most, although it's now obsolete um and flew the flew most of my training in the UH-1. When I say UH-1 and Huey, that's the same thing um it's a bell, it's a made by Bell Helicopter. It's about 50 feet long, single rotor, two pilots, generally carries can carry in different configurations, up to about nine people, um up to about nine people or equivalent cargo. Um I flew 00:20:00that at Fort Rucker um. And found it to be exciting, sometimes scary. Uh I had apprehension about flying formation um helicopters in order, as a matter of protection and simply to keep all together. We'll fly in formation and occasionally those formations uh were were directed to be quite tight as in overlapping rotors. My rotor blade would be over or above the rotor blade that would be off to my left front um and that that gets your attention

[Pause]

Morgan Crossin: So when did you first find out you were going to to Vietnam?

James Palmer: In, in 1967, when I was on active duty, everybody expected to go 00:21:00to Vietnam. Um I was there about three months uh there being, Oh, I was at Fort Knox, Kentucky, first before going to Fort Walters. I was in Fort Knox for about three months and got orders ordering me to go to Vietnam with uh with temporary duty at Fort Walters and Fort Rucker before going. So I got a piece of paper telling me I was going to Vietnam in about March of 1967.

Morgan Crossin: So, so you had complete, completely expected it to happen at some point.

James Palmer: Yes. Mm-Hmm.

Morgan Crossin: How did your family react to you going to war?

James Palmer: Now, my mother was concerned I'd get hurt, as understandably. My father thought it was a great adventure. Um, most of my family, uh I was not married at the time. Most of my family appreciated that I had a legal duty to go. So they all shrugged and said, "Good luck, take care of yourself and 00:22:00hopefully we'll see it when you get back."

Morgan Crossin: Did you know how long you were going to be serving there?

James Palmer: Uh the uh yes, I did. The annual the standard tour for the Army for soldiers uh was um 12 months, one year for the Marines, it was 13 months. In my case. I served a year from February '68 to February, beginning of February '68, the beginning of February '69. Um, as it happened, my father died in July of '68 and they sent me on compassionate leave for 30 days. So I was stationed in a at a unit, in a unit in Korea, in Vietnam for a year, but it was actually on site there for just 11 months.

[Pause]

Morgan Crossin: So when did you first arrive in Vietnam? You already set uh March '68, February '68.

James Palmer: February '68, um I think it was February 2nd, I think it was February 2nd because I had what was called a DEROS, a Date of Estimated Rotation From Overseas Service, another acronym uh or, but they were the army's big on acronyms if you haven't figured it out yet.

Morgan Crossin: [Laughter] Yeah i'm starting to learn a lot of that!

James Palmer: Anyway, my DEROS was February 2nd um and every Vietnam veteran remembers his or her DEROS. Um so I got there on February 2nd or February 3rd, 1968. Um Just during it was during the Tet Offensive. I remember packing and watching CBS News, where they said the Viet Cong (National Liberation Front of South Vietnam) had only occupied the bottom five stor, No only occupy the bottom 00:24:00five stories of the American Embassy. And I counted and there were really six stories to start with. So I knew there was trouble, so I got there in the middle of the uh Tet Offensive. Well, the '68 Tet Offensive, which was the the biggest of all of the several Tet Offensive um and it was busy and frantic and scary and exciting and um simply not fun. uh then after about three weeks, the offensive was over and I was wondering what happened? There was So, how did it suddenly get so quiet? And the answer was, this is typically how it is, you just came in and a period of a lot of excitement. That is your question?

Morgan Crossin: Yes. Yes, it did.

James Palmer: Okay. All right. Sometimes I just ramble on, excuse me.

Morgan Crossin: Its perfectly. All right. So what were your first impressions 00:25:00upon arrival?

James Palmer: Smelled bad, it was hot. [Pause] Everybody uh was dirty and sweaty, cynical. Um I remember the I was the new guy and was looked down upon because of that because everyone else would tell me how short they were. I will tell you two two more military terms. One is the FNG [Fucking New Guy], and the last two, the last two words there are New Guy um and everybody call everybody else FNGs. Um after a while, I was the FNG until somebody came behind me, and then it was his problem, and the other expression was Short, um to be short in 00:26:00the military hm. To be short in the military is to have a, not a long period of time remaining on your assignment. So when you were a [Unintelligible], when you when you when you've completed 11 months, you were Short, um if you were, I was as compared to everybody who came behind me uh I was Short. Um I had lots of people, had a short time or calendar where they check off the dates when they had left. Uh I had to belt of machine gun bullets that I hung over my locker and removed a bullet every time, uh every every day that went by. Uh so I kept my short primary calendar was a belt of machine gun ammunition.

Morgan Crossin: Wow.

James Palmer: Um, that sounds heroic. It's it's it's it's macho c'mon! Um, fun 00:27:00story. Funny story. Um I flew huey Charlie battle gunships [UH-1C Gunship?] and when I was on, was home on uhm emergency leave um my unit turned in this Charlie model gunships and received and received Huey Cobras, a later model gunship um in exchange, uh I had opportunity to learn to fly that helicopter, but I have had to extend my tours in Vietnam and uh chose not to do that. Uh when I got home, I was explaining this, this to a woman, a woman on our first date, the woman who subsequently became my wife, and I said to her I would have had opportunity to fly Cobras, but I was too Short, meaning I didn't have enough time left. Um you've seen me and I'm six two, six three.

Morgan Crossin: Okay yeah, I would. I wouldn't say, yeah.

James Palmer: Yeah, and she looked at me and said "How tall did you have to be?"

[Both Laugh]

James Palmer: And I remind her of that from time to time. So.

Morgan Crossin: So where are you stationed?

James Palmer: Um, as I said, I worked in III Corps, mostly III Corps the area north and uh north. Let's see west, north and east of Saigon. I was based at three locations, primarily. I started in a place called Lai Khê, um which was about 45 miles northwest of Saigon. Uh I was there for a couple of weeks and then we moved to the regiment to the regiments base camp, by the regiment, by the way, I mean, the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment that I mentioned that

Morgan Crossin: Yes.

James Palmer: Okay, we moved to the 11th Cav's base camp, which was about 10 miles south of Xuan Loc and Xuan Loc is, 50 miles or so east of Saigon. We were there for a great deal of time. Along about September of '68 we moved to Bien Hua, uh which is a large air force base, um which is about 15 miles north of Saigon. As I say, I would occasionally visit lots of other places um in that area, it those were my three base bases. I think the furthest to the West that I went was a town called Củ Chi, which was a um an army division headquarters, is now a uh a famous memorial at uhm in among the Vietnamese because they they 00:30:00had tunnels under Củ Chi and for the entire duration of the war, the twenty fifth, I think it was infantry division sat on the ground, but at Củ Chi and did not know that there was a North Vietnamese division that was living 50 feet below them. Um they were very good at hiding themselves. Củ Chi was to the farthest west, to the farthest east was a city called Vũng Tàu, which is a seashore town, a re a seashore resort town on what the French called Cap Saint Jaque, or, pardon my French uh Saint Jack Cape, um and we had maintenance helicopter maintenance facilities that we would go to there from time to time. Uh additionally, we go there to get hamburgers, um because that was one of the places one of the few places you could get hamburgers. Uh uh Vũng Tàu now is 00:31:00uh now is and probably throughout its history was a seashore resort town if you uh wish to vacation in Vietnam, the travel agent will tell you to go to Cape, go to Vũng Tàu. So, so Vũng Tàu, over the Củ Chi and with it with those three bases bases.

So what were your expectations of the war? Like, how did you expect it to to go for you?

James Palmer: A Korean soldier was asked that question, and he said, "I just hope I can see tomorrow." Um people shot at me from time to time um and there was, shot at me and dropped mortars on me and fired rockets at me and and, a great many helicopter pilots were injured in accidents, probably twice as many 00:32:00were killed in accidents where they were killed by enemy fire, uh so I was in danger and um desperately hoped to get out of danger and desperately hope to get out of the danger one day, one day at a time. How's that?

Morgan Crossin: Very good, do you remember your first assignment?

James Palmer: Yeah, I won a medal. Uh I got there, let's see and, got introduced, met my platoon leader, got there late at night, that would be evening or evening, I suppose, went to bed. Next morning, they woke me up and said "They hit the ammo dumps," to which I said, "what exactly does that mean?" He said "we got to move the helicopters" the American the army stored its 00:33:00ammunition in a particular location, it was called an ammo dump. uh and the North Vietnamese, or the Viet Cong mortar rounds into the ammo dump were causing what are called secondary explosions, a mortar round will drop and explode and cause the ammunition that is stored there to explode. Our helicopters were parked near the ammo dump. So suddenly there was a big rush to, um, a big rush to move the helicopters quickly and I jumped into a helicopter with my platoon leader uh and they both there's one helicopter left. The crew chief and the gunner are standing there, but there's no pilot. The platoon leader looked at me and said, "You're it" "Yes, sir." I got out, I climbed in. Uh this was a hel- a 00:34:00model of the Huey helicopter that I had never flown before. So the uh the it was the orientation was a little different. Um I remember that I was trying to go through a checklist when you start an aircraft, um you have a checklist of things you remember to do in sequence, otherwise, the helicopter doesn't start, some of which are necessary, some of which are simply nice. And I remember I climbed in and the first thing I remember doing on my checklist was check by seatbelt to make sure the inertia reel worked. Well, frankly, whether the inertia reel worked or not, I really didn't need to waste the time trying to check the seatbelt and the crew chief and the and the the door gunner were kind of looking at me. "What are you doing Lieutenant? C'mon, let's get out of here."

[Both Laugh]

James Palmer: So um eventually I got the thing cranked up, um and as I say, I 00:35:00had never flown that model before uh, picked it up, um had no radio, had no idea what who to talk to on the radio. Um and I said, "What do I do now?" And a voice came out of nowhere, who was the crew chief at the back but I did realize that they said, I think we're flying it all to Zeon. "And I said, all right, what does it mean to fly to Zeon?" Zeon is another city where is Zeon? I have no idea, uh which way is north? I have no idea! Here I am standing with a handful of helicopter, trying to figure out what to do. And they said, Oh, wait a minute, everybody else is over on the other side. So I hovered over and parked and put it down. And that got me an Air Medal with V um for being being the last guy to fly out of out of the burning ammo dump again wasn't my choice, but they told me to do it. [Pause] That was my first day.

Morgan Crossin: That was the first day?

James Palmer: Oh yeah, as I say,

Morgan Crossin: Wow

James Palmer: I got the night before, woke up the next morning and said, "Go fly a helicopter." And I did.

Morgan Crossin: So,

James Palmer: Let's say after that, that sort of thing indicated my first day and then um things died down a couple of weeks later and I just said it, It got

Morgan Crossin: Oh yeah

James Palmer: more relaxed, maybe boring.

Morgan Crossin: What uh what a first day.

James Palmer: Yeah.

Morgan Crossin: Middle of the Tet offensive, had to evacuate immediately, that's that's incredible.

James Palmer: Hmm. I thought so. So did the army. That's why they gave me a medal.

[Both Laugh]

Morgan Crossin: So what kind of um assignments did you undertake? What was your job?

James Palmer: Our job was to support, troops on the ground who were engaged in enemy fire, uh engage with engaged with the enemy. Usually, troops of the 11th 00:37:00Cav um who were on the ground driving what they called ACAVs, Armored Cavalry Assault Vehicles. And they would drive through the through the, mostly on the roads, but occasionally through the jungle or the rice paddies uh, looking for the Vietcong and sometimes they would find them, but sometimes the Vietcong found them found them, so sometimes the Viet Cong ambush them, so if they were easy to find in those circumstances. When that happened, they would call for gunship support. Um we were nearby at another at another field. Uh We would come out and on demand fire uh on at request at the request of the troops on the ground, fire rockets or uh mini guns, a rocket runs about slightly under three inches in diameter uh was used on, vehicles, uh bunkers, uh houses um, it had. 00:38:00It exploded, it had shrapnel eh or a little little dot a little um darts uh called flechette rounds that were used [Breaths] im trying figure a way to say they were anti-personnel weapons, um they they they they they chop people to shreds and kill them, um we would do that mostly for the for the 11th Cav. Occasionally, for other people uh to include sometimes the South Vietnamese army uh who were in the same situation,um a great, our helicopters did not have a lot of flight time available. Um its maximum weight was about ten thousand pounds, 00:39:00and we didn't carry many people, just just a four man crew, but we loaded up with ammu- with weapons and ammunition, if we did that, we could only put like 600 pounds of fuel on on board, 600 pounds of fuels, is about an hour's worth of flight time so that we, if we were sitting on what's called strip alert, waiting for waiting uh at a field somewhere and we got called um to go do our thing, uh it might take us 20 minutes to get there and another 20 minutes to get back, uh so that we could buy more so that we can get more fuel, uh which only meant that we had 20 minutes to fire our our weapons, actually that only, generally only took a few minutes. But for that reason, we didn't get a whole lot of flight time. Most of most of the time we spent on strip alert waiting to do something um. Reading and eating, eating sea rations, and uh we would put a, there is a um 00:40:00on the back of a Charlie model Huey is a handle about 12 inches long that pops out from the tail boom so you can put, you can push the um the helicopter around when you put a little ground handling wheels. Uh also, the the Charlie model has what's called a stinger, which is a, for want of a better term its a stick that sticks out the back under the tail rotor to protect the tail rudder. Um we found that you could stretch a hammock between that, that peg and the uh the stinger. And it was quite comfortable. Good place to nap.

Morgan Crossin: So what was your what was your average day like?

James Palmer: A lot of strip alert um we had, um, we rotated the troop we had 00:41:00the Air Cavalry Troop had three three platoons of gunships. Um, and um. The first team, the first response team uh generally uhm um, rotated for the first, second or third platoon. Um, that was on a daily basis, so we were we were first in line um, well, every third day we were second in line, every third day we were third line, every third day. Um we were we mostly waiting around for things to happen. Um it happened on a daily basis for the first team generally, they would go out and fly a support mission, or we would also fly convoy cover. um, if the unit was moving, particularly at night, we would fly a lot. We would fly 00:42:00overhead just in case they drew fire. [Cough] Um, the first team would go out on pretty much a daily basis, the first number one team whatever we called it, uh the second team would often go out, the third team would sort of relax back and uh do other stuff um among the other thing, after five o'clock drink beer, which sometimes got embarrassing when at seven o'clock, the third team got called out and we had to decide who, who was sober enough to fly? um and we we. Sometimes had trouble making making that decision, um but. That was we survived.

Morgan Crossin: Were there any, any particularly dangerous jobs out of the ones 00:43:00you've did? In other words, were like some more dangerous than others? Or was it about the same thing?

James Palmer: Most of the, hmm. [Pause] Most of the danger, the more dangerous aspect of the job had to do with accidents. So uh occasionally we would do things that would that would risk that would risk the risk, the aircraft. For example, um when I stopped shooting, stopped flying gunships. Well, let's see. If when flying gunships, occasionally the aircraft would stop what would want to 00:44:00stop flying. Uh you would put it into a configuration where it would uh somehow or other not be able to fly, and you'd have to recover from an unusual circumstance, the usual situation. That's scary. Uh when I got done flying gunships, I was I began to fly Slicks, slicks are UH-1s that have the guns taken off, so they're called Slick. um and we occasionally would have to put put the put that aircraft in a very small space, a very tight space um and um that was there was a real risk of getting hurt there. At one point I do remember we were flying a combat assault, which means we were flying an infantry unit into the field, into a uh landing zone and we were drawing fire, um and that was that was 00:45:00disconcerting. But even more disconcerting was the fact that the gunships, other gunships were with us and they were firing back and their fire was pretty, it was quite close to ours. We would, the greater risk that we were getting shot by our own helicopters uh then by the by the the Vietcong. Um, that's that's the, um on the subject of danger, I remember one night we were flying in a trail in a trail of six helicopters and, um I started to lag behind. I was I was number six uh in the tail end of the formation and I started to lag behind. And I said, "Hey, I better catch up." And the formation was flying at probably 80 knots, a 00:46:00knot being slightly more than a mile, so something like 85 miles an hour. Um flying, actually, give me a minute. 80, 96 miles an hour and, I, fell behind, I was like I was lagging [Unintelligible], not paying attention, I guess. Uh and started suddenly realize I was so far behind. I nosed it over to about 100 miles an hour or 110 miles an hour, and I closed on number five, so tight so quickly that I think I almost hit him. I remember um, his coming up very fast my pulling slightly back very quickly and saying to myself, "Boy, that was lucky." I'm not 00:47:00sure. I'm not sure what what the other guys in the aircraft knew were knew or thought about it, but I do I do remember it was a close call.

Morgan Crossin: I feel like if the the guy ahead of you, uh knew that you almost hit him, I feel like after the, after you were done he may have come up to you and been like, "Hey, what was, what was up with that?" [Laugh]

James Palmer: He would have, but he probably wouldn't have known it. Um we didn't both [Connection Cuts] Well, first of all, it was night, so our vision was restricted and we were mostly plays concerning uh, mostly concerned with what was in front of us, and in fact, he was trying to fly information on the number four guy and paying close attention to him. So it is probable if I had hit him, he would have known what happened until he's falling to his death and 00:48:00then them would not have had opportunity to, well on the way down he might have said some bad things about me, but he wouldn't have opportunity to confront me because I would be falling to my death uh nearer to him so. So along with six other people, there were four to an aircraft. So.

Morgan Crossin: So how did you handle the prospect of danger?

James Palmer: I drank. Beer helped. [Laugh] Yeah, I yeah, we drink a lot of beer. Um, there were. Hmm. Various ways of uh relieving your stress. Um I don't wish to tell you that we were alcoholics, but do you know what a pallet of beer was? Do you have any idea what a pallet of beer is?

Morgan Crossin: A pallet?

James Palmer: A pallet of beer?

Morgan Crossin: Not, I wouldn't know but that sounds large.

James Palmer: Large, a pallet is a wooden um tray that you move around with a forklift truck.

Morgan Crossin:Oh, those!

James Palmer: OK? That holds one hundred and forty four cases of beer, and we would use but use up a pallet in the about a month.

Morgan Crossin: Wow.

James Palmer: We drank a lot of beer. There was hard liquor available ridiculously cheaply, uh and some guys drank that. Um, the Liquor was so cheap that I wrote to my mother one day, you were, do you have any experience with something called Thunderbird wine?

Morgan Crossin: Uh, no.

James Palmer: Ok ok,

Morgan Crossin: No, I'm not much of a drinker.

James Palmer: All right, well, you wouldn't if you were a drinker you would stop being a drinker if you tried Thunderbird. Actually, I'm not sure if they still still sell Thunderbird, but Thunderbird was a very cheap wine uh that they had 00:50:00in the early 60s. I wrote to my mother and commented that liquor was so cheap that we can't get Thunderbird wine. And she sent me two bottles of Thunderbird wine in violation of postal regulations all over the place, but I got them.

Morgan Crossin: [Laughter]

James Palmer: And one night finished a bottle of Thunderbird wine all by myself and was very, very hung over the day the day after. So that's that's that's my cheap liquor story. Um we, had opportunity to um take vacations for want of a term, um do are you familiar with the term R&R?

Morgan Crossin: Yes.

James Palmer: You are. OK, so we had R&R we had opportunity to go on R&R uh once 00:51:00once some of us went twice, I went twice. Um, we occasionally, I remember once they sent me to the Philippines for uhm survival training, um and that gave me opportunity to walk around Manila en route and back and get me getting, the Filipinos did not shoot at me so that that was that that made my life a little easier. I went for R&R to Hong Kong and, to Hawaii, um. Uh, twice in my time. Um, occasionally we would get, a day off, I guess they call it in-country R&R um where we would go to various, I think we went to Vũng Tàu from time to time. I know I know now that the Marines uh would go on a battleship do you have you 00:52:00ever been to the battleship New Jersey?

Morgan Crossin: I have not

James Palmer: You have not, uh well, there is a swimming pool now on the battleship New Jersey. It's a big ship um and the Marines would occasionally go to the New Jersey for three days of uh just relaxing or the battleship. Um we're going to get off color. Did you know that R&R was also called I&I?

Morgan Crossin: I did not, what does that one stand for?

James Palmer: Intercourse and intoxication.

Morgan Crossn: [Laughter]

James Palmer: So that's what we went for. It was rest and recreation, they called R&R, rest and recreation. Intercourse and intoxication was what was occasionally the name for it.

[Pause]

Morgan Crossin: So how how was your,

James Palmer: I,

Morgan Crossin:Um, i'm sorry?

James Palmer: I was going to suggest I was going to mention to you, by the way, that uh I&I was not always, well I&I was the case of the often the case of the married guys, because they would their favorite R&R spot was Hawaii. Their wives would meet them there. I guess another favorite R&R spot was Sydney, Australia. In fact, that at least among the unmarried guys was the favorite spot for a very racist reason.

Morgan Crossin: [Scoff]

James Palmer: Ok,

Morgan Crossin: Yeah. [Laughter]

James Palmer: We, there were European women. Uh, we called them round eyes. Because the Asian women had slanted eyes, so we would go to, to go to Sydney, Australia was the opportunity to meet round eyed women, so.

Morgan Crossin: So, how is your um relationship with like the local population, like you were stationed, like, like an 80 mile arc, like around Saigon?

James Palmer: Yeah, I did not run into, I did not encounter the local population much, other than the ones who shot at the and they they weren't friendly. Most of the time, I hung around with uh American soldiers. Occasionally, I would meet an American woman or a European woman in any event, um I would meet Vietnamese in service contexts uh Vietnamese bartenders, Vietnamese um secretaries, secretaries or office workers. Uh occasionally, a Vietnamese army officer. Um, but I did not encounter them too much. Those that I encountered were very 00:55:00friendly uh because we were they were dependent on the Americans for the economic uh benefit for well-being.

Morgan Crossin: Did you ever get um, any moments of like brevity like during the holidays or something?

James Palmer: Brevity? I'm not sure I understand the question.

Morgan Crossin: Like, just like a time to like, just relax a bit that wasn't just like R&R.

James Palmer: Um, we didn't well, we didn't fly a whole lot. Um I think that the average flight time in uh, in what were called lift companies [Cough] for tours in Vietnam was like about twelve hundred hours a year. Um, my flight time was a 00:56:00neighborhood of about four hundred hours. So we didn't fly around a lot and we spent a lot of time in base camp um standing by to fly. Um, so that was. Un, inactive in the sense that we weren't getting shot at, but there was always the risk we were about to get shot at. And of course, our base camp would be would be subject to mortar and artillery fire. So you could relax at base camp knowing, but you had to keep alert for the idea that you were going to wind up suddenly getting mortared or getting mortared in the dark of night had to go, run, run, run, hide the bunker. Um, so uh for brevity, also, we would go to the club, uh the officer's club, drink, beer and carrouse. Occasionally, we would go 00:57:00to town, um and drink at a bar, a Vietnamese bar or a bar in Vietnam patronized by American soldiers, um and we would go to. Because we were always traveling around, we knew when we landed in a particular place the good places to go. Um if we landed at a higher headquarters, uh we knew that they were going to have a good cafeteria or a a well-stocked PX [Post Exchange] or that sort of thing. So, um as I said at a generally at the end of the day, we'd sit around and uh drink beer and sing songs and stuff like that, y'know.

Morgan Crossin: So speaking of, um was there any like, forms of like entertainment for soldiers?

James Palmer: Yeah, um I was about to tell you my Oldies story. Um, I was dating a woman. Let's see, I am, or at least was, well-versed in oldies-but-goodies, specifically rock and roll songs from about '64 to about '72. Um, I was dating a woman. That, uh, we got into a conversation and I dazzled her with my knowledge. Um, so she and the people in her office got together and gave us a list of about 200 oldies-but-goodies and sent it to me in the mail and said, All right, figure 00:59:00out who these people are. And I got together with my platoon and we figured we knocked it out in about 20 minutes. We were that good, except a few of them we couldn't get. There was a song called Last Kiss by uh, Last Kiss, and we could not remember uh who sang that song. And for weeks, we would aggravate each other by just starting to sing the song, and nobody thought of it. What was it? What was it? What was it? We got called out to a mission, and we're talking to the guy on the ground and we're talking about how we're going to come in and fire our rockets and talking to each other, doing this coordination and um flight, uh the, the flight lead, Thunder Horse six, not Thunder Horse six, Thunder Horse 01:00:00three six horse, three six was about to come out, rolled in fired his rockets and said "Thunder Horse three six is rolling left." "This is Thunder Horse three two Roger and that was Jay Frank Wilson and the Dakodas," or Jay Frank Wilson and the Cavaliers. There's silence and Thunder Horse says God damn, they just some, Jay Frank Wilson and the Cavaliers appears, just came to somebody in the middle of the battle.

Morgan Crossin: [Laughter]

James Palmer: The guy, the guy on the ground had no idea what we're talking about, but we knew.

Morgan Crossin: That's that's that's really good.

[Both Laugh]

Morgan Crossin: It hits you in the most unexpected moment. "Oh yeah!"

James Palmer: Oh, yes, it does indeed, yeah. Mm hmm. Um, Additionally, we would have USO [United Service Organization] shows from time to time. Let's see, Bob 01:01:00Hope, who was a major entertainer, had a USO show, um had a Christmas, occasionally other USO shows would show up, ah. Celebrities would come from time to time, I remember uh, Give me a minute. [Exhale]. There's an actor, oh, i'm going to say, Ed Wynn, but I'm not sure of that. But I do remember standing around doing some work at our base camp um and somebody walked up said, "Hey, Ed Wynn Jr. is, Ed Wynn Jr. is here to talk to the troops." Um, and we looked at each other and said "who the hell is Ed Wynn J?" But occasionally they would 01:02:00show up. Um we also had visits from donut dollies, um donut dollies, i've explained what donut dollies are, you want me to do it again?

Morgan Crossin: Yes you have, of course.

James Palmer: Donut dollies were Red Cross volunteers. Um, generally high, college graduates. Early 20s. Unmarried, as far as I knew who were, who worked as hostesses for want of a better term. The term started, they started in World War One when they would go after the trucks and bring donuts and coffee, hence, the name they had them in World War Two, the Korean War and Vietnam. I don't know they hadt them in any subsequent wars. But what the donut dollies would do was go visit troops in the field. Uh, in fact, I showed you a picture of a donut 01:03:00dolly visiting a unit of the 11th Cav. They would go to troops in the field, bring refreshments, um coffee, donuts, sandwiches talk to them. "Hi, how you been? Where are you from? Can I write a letter to your mother? Can I mail a letter to your mother?" They would occasionally play games, charades, that sort of things, and they would make short visits to the field so they were, they provided entertainment. I do remember that there were the USO shows where sometimes small, small but very small operations two comedians, two dancers, that sort of thing. My, I think if I if I have I strayed from your question?

Morgan Crossin: Um what was my question?

[Both Laugh]

Morgan Crossin: Um, no no, this is this is still on topic.

James Palmer: Okay, all right. Um, my. Favorite? What of a better term or scariest flashback uh, Vietnam flashback arose from uh from an entertainment event I've told you this story before? Okay.

Morgan Crossin: Yes.

James Palmer: My jungle fatigue uniform um had a particular unpleasant smell, and I don't know why it would have been the fabric, it might have been me, my sweat, it might have been the jet fuel I worked with, it might have been the washer the soap and water that they washed it in. Um, in any event, it was an unpleasant smell, but not the worst, worst smell. You've had Vietnam. That's background part one. Background Part two. Uh I saw the Bob Hope Christmas show in Long Bihn. Bob ended the show as he, his was the big show he had cast of. The 01:05:00cast was probably 20 people, technicians, maybe 20 more orchestra, 20 more lots and lots of people. He ended the show, as he usually does um with the stay, the cast on stage, leading the audience and singing Silent Night. An emotional moment. Imagine if you will, about 400 men and women. And these are people, most of whom are 17 to 24 years old. Some of them were going to be dead soon. And, almost all of them wishing at that moment um to be home with a serving of spending a holiday with their wives, their families, their friends. To sing 01:06:00Silent Night, Holy Night, all is calm, all is bright. Many people got choked up, many people produced tears. The scary part, scary flashbacks, 50 some years, fifty four years or more later or thereabouts. When I sing Silent Night, I still smell my jungle fatigues.

Morgan Crossin: Wow.

James Palmer: Yeah.

Morgan Crossin: That's quite that's quite a story.

James Palmer: I, hey! It's it's it's it's it's quite a story to tell it to that. I put it on Facebook one time for Veterans Day, I think, got 85 comments. Um, 01:07:00but you know, I don't have a a large wealth of Facebook friends, but you know, lots and lots of likes and 85 people sat back and decided to comment on it. Just. one or two,

Morgan Crossin: I can see why

James Palmer: One or two cried, or at least said they did so, yeah.

Morgan Crossin: So how did you feel about your service um during the time, like like when you were there? Did it just feel like a job or that you were like fighting for a cause?

James Palmer: I did not, hmm. One of the last things that I felt was that I was fighting for American honor and um to protect uh the wives and family from 01:08:00communism and so on. We just, you got too cynical for that very quickly. I think earlier I mentioned the guy from Korea, uh your major, um your major goal in life is to be alive tomorrow. Beyond that? Um, cynicism was was probably your uh, your biggest. Uhh, hmm. Your biggest emotion. Um, you ready, ready for me to 01:09:00sing a song? Would you uh

Morgan Crossin: Sure

James Palmer: All right. Um, do you know Sweet Betsy from Pike?

Morgan Crossin: I do not. Hmm. You don't know. All right. Um, You probably recognize it, but [Singing Sweet Betsy from Pike]. Got it.

Morgan Crossin: Yes yes.

James Palmer: There we go all right. So we talked about [Lyrically] Saigon o Saigon, It's a wonderful place, the organization's a [Mouth's expletive] disgrace, there's captains and majors and light colonels too, all standing around with nothing to do, they stand on the runway, they scream and they shout, about many things they know nothing about, for all they were saying, they might as well be, shoveling shit in the South China Sea. So

Morgan Crossin: [Laughter] thats kind of.

James Palmer: That uh, that is a bit that's available on tape, Tape CD and in 01:10:00our album, no no.

Morgan Crossin: [Laughter]

James Palmer: So next time you hear, if if you ever hear uh the sweet Betsy from Pike, just remember Saigon o Saigon is a wonderful place.

Morgan Crossin: I will definitely.

James Palmer: Alright Mm-Hmm

Morgan Crossin: So you completed your tour and went home uh the following year, February 1969?

James Palmer: Which was my? Say it with me.

Morgan Crossin: What was the acronym? I wrote it down.

James Palmer: Good.

Morgan Crossin: Did I write it down?

James Palmer: Starts with DER.

Morgan Crossin: Date, [Laughter] date of estimated.

James Palmer: Uh huh. Rotation from return from overseas service

Morgan Crossin: Return from Overseas Service, yes.

James Palmer: And that, the acronym is.

Morgan Crossin: DOR.

James Palmer: DEROS.

Morgan Crossin: DEROS.

James Palmer: DEROS! [Claps] Okay, yes my DEROS was February 2nd 1969, I remember. Um, actually I still had a year to serve on my um three year tour, and they assigned me to Fort Hood, Texas from about March of 69 to January 1970. Um, I came home in 1970 um when I came back from Vietnam I fell in love and came home in 1970 and asked uh my lady love to marry me. She foolishly agreed uh and we got engaged in February 1970. I worked, yeah, we got we got married in June 01:12:00of 1970, I worked for first Pennsylvania Bank for a brief time and then started law school in September of 1970, um, when I graduated law school in, December of 1972. I was a class of 73, but I left I I I graduated early, I went to summer school and got through three years of school in two and a half years. Uh at the same time, I was um was I was flying to the National Guard, flying mostly UH-1s, Same aircraft I flew in Vietnam was at a training course and occasionally would go to a training course for various things. Um, you ready for a funny story?

Morgan Crossin: Of course.

James Palmer: All right. One of the courses I went to was back at Fort Rucker, 01:13:00Alabama, where I uh took a course in how to fly a CH-34. You've been to the avi, you've been to my museum,

Morgan Crossin: Yup

James Palmer: the big green when the says marines on the side.

Morgan Crossin: Yeah, I remember that.

James Palmer: That's a CH-34. Um, I took the ground school course. I never get to flight school cause I forget whu. But I went partly because they paid me and I used the money for flight school. Um, I had not, been speaking, I was I was in Syracuse, New York, at law school and was not used to a southern accent or had lost, lost my appreciation of a southern accent. We went to the clothing sales store, which is a place that sells military clothing and being in the National Guard, we didn't have opportunity to go to many places like this. So we go there, buy uniforms and stuff, army officers have to buy their own uniforms, by 01:14:00the way.

Morgan Crossin: I had no idea wow

James Palmer: Enlisted, enlisted guys are, hm?

Morgan Crossin: I I didn't know about that yeah,

James Palmer: Well now you know. Anyway, we're there buying uniforms stuff and, um I wanted to pay with the traveler's check. Um, once again, i'm dating myself you know what a travelers check is?

Morgan Crossin: I do yeah

James Palmer: Yeah yeah. Well hey! That's that's, uh many people don't, I wanted to pay with a traveler's check, and I asked the attendant or the salesman, "will you take a traveler's check" and he'll, this is my my southern accent is not good, but I'll try and say, [In a Southern Accent] "Yeah, I'll take traveler's check." "OK, who do I make it out to?" "Al Stampit" "Who?" "Al Stampit." "One more time." "Al Stampit.". "Al Stampit?" "Yeah, Al Stampit." Thats about right,. 01:15:00We wrote on the traveler's check pay to the order of Al Stampit. He looked at the checks and said "What the hell it this?" And I said, "You told me to Al Stampit!" He said "I didn't say Al Stampit, I said Al Stampit!" He has a stamp that says Treasurer of the United States and he was going to use that stamp to put it on the uh on the check. So I walked around for a couple of days hoping I'd find somebody named Al Stampit and I'd give my check to, So, theres. It's it's one of my favorite National Guard stories. So.

Morgan Crossin: So how are you treated um coming back from the war?

James Palmer: Not badly. Um, I don't remember that anybody walked up to me and 01:16:00spit my face or called me baby killer or anything like that. Uh, maybe I was lucky. Let's see. I came back in '67. No. '69. Um, probably, the protests got more violent or more vociferous in '70 and '71, when I was in law school and when I was in law school, and a great many of my law students or the uh law students with me were ex-soldiers, ex-GIs and or are just the people I hung out with who were ex-GI. Probably, drew a lot of a great, many dirty looks, but no actual confrontation um, in most cases, I found that people, those people I talked to were opposed to the policy of the war in Vietnam, but not necessarily 01:17:00opposed to the executors of the policy. Um, that would be the soldiers involved. A benefit, I had a picture taken of me um which, you now have, and attached that picture to my application to law school, and it shows me a khaki uniform, medals air medals, um that uh um wings. Sideburns, too long longer than the army allowed and what I call my Sgt. Pepper mustache. That would that. I think I think it looks either like Paul or John from the uh from the Sergeant Pepper album cover. I think that I I think, there is a distinct possibility that that picture got me into law school. So.

Morgan Crossin: How was um returning to civilian life, was there any trouble readjusting?

James Palmer: Well, every time I sing Silent Night, I smell my jungle fatigues. Yeah. Um, . none that I particularly remember, though, none particularly traumatic. I lived for a short time with my sister, who had two small children. I remember I was uncomfortable with small children um because small kids, small kids would what would come up to us up to the aircraft and sometimes in Vietnam, and there was always a fear that one of them was carrying a hand grenade. Um, I remember one night I was with my girlfriend/fiancee and she lived two or three 01:19:00doors down from the firehouse and the fire siren went off. Um, that startled me because that's that that caused me to flashback to a mortar attack, and I do dove underthe coffee table. That impressed her, uh but, I do not recall that I had a whole lot of mental health problems or emotional problems. So of course, that's that's not the sort of thing one remembers anyway, so, but I don't recall.

Morgan Crossin: So after the war, you decided to go to law school.

James Palmer: I did.

Morgan Crossin: What made you decide to take that path?

James Palmer: Well, I was hm, I was a liberal arts major in college, uh which at 01:20:00the time was generally thought I was an advanced high school. Um, I did not have which, but I didn't have a whole lot of technical training or scientific training that I could uh gravitate toward. Um, I guess it was always in the back of my mind when I was at Fort Hood, I wound up defending a couple of people in Courts Martial, at the time, defense counsel did not have to be a lawyer, but I did did that and got a bit of a reputation for it, got a good reputation for it, um enjoyed it, sat back and said, "Hey, this is something special to be" y'know if you want to be special. You. You could be a lawyer of the what's what is the line? I am a helicopter pilot, a lawyer, i'm also an actor, an actor, and, 01:21:00something else I forget. But somebody would say that's three three egos right there, each the size of Montana.

Morgan Crossin: [Laughter]

James Palmer: And I think I heard the line before, but I think I heard it then they used it on the West Wing. So maybe Alan Sorkin came up with it, but uh it strokes your ego to think that you were a helicopter pilot and and or a lawyer and or an army officer and or an actor. [Pause] And or married to a wonderful woman, I'll say, i'll throw that in there, she's not here, but that that that that's helpful as well.

Morgan Crossin: So you mentioned um,

James Palmer: And also,

Morgan Crossin: I'm sorry? Continue,

James Palmer: Wait, wait and also the father of two wonderful children too, 01:22:00okay. And one wonderful grandchild! So,

Morgan Crossin: Um, you mentioned to me prior to this interview that you're um in contact with fellow veterans?

James Palmer: Say what?

Morgan Crossin: Uh, you mentioned to me prior to this, to the interview that you're in contact with um like fellow veterans like of your of your regiment?

James Palmer: Not much in contact. I belong to a couple of associations. One is the Veterans of 11th of the the 11th Cav or 11th Cav Veterans of Vietnam and Cambodia, and the other is the Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association. Um, I belong to the associations. They have uh regular reunions. I do go to them. I don't know that I, at the Museum i'm Friendly with a couple of guys who were 01:23:00Helicopter Vietnam helicopter pilots, we have that in common and we sit around and sing, Oh, Saigon o Saigon, it's a wonderful place from time to time. But I don't associate with too many veterans because because of uh because they were veterans. So. Um, there are people, some guys who go to veterans, go to veterans, veterans events all the time. Um, but that's that's not for me. I remember one guy, I remember one guy called up called me up once and said, "I am special so-and-so you remember me from Vietnam?" and I said, "Yeah sorta." And it was kind of an embarrassing phone conversation. He was. He would give me lots of, "do you remember what happened to so-and-so" and I'm thinking to myself, "No, I don't remember that" I was. A little embarrassed because he was so 01:24:00enthusiastic um about talking about his war, our war experiences. And I did not share his enthusiasm, so I'm not a big veterans guy, I had a story. I was going to tell you that I forgot it. Give me a minute.

Morgan Crossin: Of course.

James Palmer: Nope, it may it may come back to me.

Morgan Crossin: That's fine, just bring it up if it does come back, yeah.

James Palmer: All right. Wait a minute, say again, your question.

Morgan Crossin: Um my question was um

James Palmer: Notice how soldiers say "say again"

[Both Laugh]

Morgan Crossin: Um, are you in contact um with fellow veterans?

[Pause]

James Palmer: Mm. Yes. Well, I've explained, my with fellow veterans in Vietnam, 01:25:00I probably have the same feeling, AH! Ask me if I want to go back to Vietnam, in a minute, I also have contact, of course, with the veterans with the veterans in the National Guard. I was in Vietnam for one year when I was in the National Guard for close to 20. So there are are more were more National Guard contacts, then um Vietnam contacts or active duty contacts, for that matter. Do I want to go back to Vietnam? Um, many people do, and I don't, and I try to figure out why. And I've come up with the answer. Most of what I saw in Vietnam were the tops of trees because I spent my life either sitting in uh desolate air fields or desolate base camps, or flying above troops flying above jungles and trees. Um, When it was in the National Guard, I spent most of my time flying over the 01:26:00trees of Pennsylvania. Um, and I've decided that the trees and the trees, the from the top from 2000 feet in the air the trees of Pennsylvania and the trees of Vietnam, are practically identical. And so there's nothing for me to see in Vietnam other than the tops of trees or many places that I used to be based based at the right now, overgrown with secondary growth or, more trees. And if I can see trees in Pennsylvania and see trees in Vietnam, it's not worth worth it for me to travel halfway around the world to see them. So. In case you were wondering, why wanted weather, why I never went back.

Morgan Crossin: So looking back, how do you make sense of your time in Vietnam? How do you make sense of the war in general?

James Palmer: From a macro viewpoint. I think the war in Vietnam was probably the third biggest mistake our country has ever made, the other two being killing Indians and and uh condoning slavery. Um, I. Feel a great sense of loss. Um, what I consider the things, the things that the country lost uh as opposed to what I lost personally, um I came back intact. Although as long as I've recently, as I've demonstrated the past hour full of lots of stories, um but, 01:28:00I'm saddened by the sad overall by the event. I remember the first time I saw I saw the the Vietnam Veterans Museum. Have you see the veterans monument? You've seen that Washington?

Morgan Crossin: I haven't been there, but um we actually have a trip planned for um, a few weeks.

James Palmer: Okay. I remember that okay. I remember the first time I was there, um, I left and sat down at the Lincoln Memorial and cried and cried and cried and cried and cried. Um, my wife and my kids had never seen me cry before, like they'd never seen me cry like that before, and maybe only once, what other times seen me cry at all? So I broke down. On the other hand, I would not be the person I would, I would not be the person I am if it were not for my military 01:29:00experience um, that whether that be good or bad is for other other people to decide. But it is formed my life.

Morgan Crossin: So did you have any, we're just about wrapping up here, um, do you have any final words or stories or things you wanted to bring up that we didn't get to go over?

James Palmer: I don't think so, um I've said my third worst third biggest mistake comment, which I think pretty well wraps it up. Um, I am sorry that our country got involved in it. Um, what Hmm, whatever good the war may have caused, and I guess that we, what we do, we, retarded the spread of communism for about 01:30:0010 years was far, far outweighed by the uh the by the bad that it caused some let's not do it again. Or if we do, don't send me

Morgan Crossin: [Laughter] Do you have any words for uh younger people studying the war as someone who lived it yourself?

[Pause]

James Palmer: Remember, let's see. That your country got you got itself into 01:31:00this um i'm thinking of Pete Seeger has the folk song Knee Deep in the Big Muddy and got himself got himself in a terrible jam way down yonder to Vietnam, that all that was not Pete Seeger, but that was Country Joe and The Fish remember that your country got you into this and, got to a position where it couldn't get out of it. Work real hard to make sure that doesn't happen. Uh, remember that the people who fought in Vietnam were [Cough] by and large like you um were by and large obliged to be there against their will un and again, work real hard to see it, to see it doesn't happen again. If you can

Morgan Crossin: We are trying very hard.

James Palmer: Oh OK. Keep at it. I thought, Yeah, OK. I was I was going to say, keep at it, because getting shot out is not, it is is something you something you wish to avoid. You know, I can, you know, I can speak. With some sense of pride about what I did was some sense of satisfaction with what about what I did, um but there's no reason to I want to share that with you. Now, no reason that I want you to have the same experience just for uh just for the for the pride or satisfaction of it.

Morgan Crossin: Alright, that's uh that's about all I got.

James Palmer: OK.

Morgan Crossin: So thank you very much for for joining me.

James Palmer: Alright

Morgan Crossin:And this was very, very good. It was very good interview.

James Palmer: It was fun, you know, always, always. Hm, yeah, it's fun talking 01:33:00about myself, particularly when I can edit uh the conversation other other people who talk about they may not have nice things to say, but at least they don't, I don't have to listen to them.

Morgan Crossin: Well, I do want to thank you for joining me and I want to thank the Louis B Nunn Center for giving us the opportunity to do this in the first place.

James Palmer: Okay, so I share I share your thanks. I enjoyed it. I was going to say we could do it again sometime, but I've I've read other stories. So, OK.