Interview with Leah Schade, June 27, 2023

KOMARA: 00:01:00Okay. That looks pretty good. Cool. And cool. Well, this is an interview for the Kentucky Climate Change Oral History Project. I’m here interviewing Reverend Dr. Leah Schade. That’s how you pronounce your name, right?

SCHADE: That is correct, yes.

KOMARA: Okay, good. Um, it is June 27, 2023. I’m Zada Komara, the interviewer. I’m a professor at University of Kentucky. And I’m interviewing Leah here at the Lexington Theological Seminary.

SCHADE: Yes.

KOMARA: So, Leah, how are you doing today?

SCHADE: I’m doing great. I’m looking forward to our conversation and just really excited that you’re recording all of this because Appalachia often gets overlooked. And, um, one of the things I’ve learned in my work is just how important to get these stories down. So, thank you all for taking the time to get this on record. (laughs).

KOMARA: Oh, man. Thank you for doing this. I’m—I’m really excited about this conversation. So 00:02:00usually I start with just establishing some biographical details.

SCHADE: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KOMARA: So, tell me a little bit about yourself.

SCHADE: Yeah. I grew up in Pennsylvania, Central Pennsylvania. Uh, and I, uh, went to college in, uh Shenandoah University. Got my, um, degree in communication with, uh, an unofficial minor in harp performance. I play the harp too, yeah, my husband and I are both musicians. And, um, I got my MDiv, my Master in Divinity, from the Lutheran Theological Seminary at Philadelphia. And, uh, served a church in Media, Pennsylvania as the associate pastor for nine years. And then I, uh, went back to seminary, the same seminary, and got my PhD. And, um, wanted to be able to teach preaching, basically. But the thing that really was important to me was connecting 00:03:00faith and ecology. That was, um, somewhat of an understudied area, just in general. And nobody was doing anything about preaching and environmental issues at the time I was interested in doing this. So that’s what I focused on. And I developed a, um, a Lutheran ecofeminist Christology for homiletical theory and practice. (laughs)--

KOMARA: --I love all those--

SCHADE: --right. (laughs)--

KOMARA: --words--

SCHADE: --right? (laughs)--

KOMARA: --I love that. (Schade laughs).

SCHADE: And that, um, became my first book, Creation Crisis Preaching, eventually. And while I was doing my course--or my comps and my dissertation, um--let me back up. While I was doing my coursework, I served as a bridge pastor for a, uh, small African American congregation in Philadelphia called Spirit and Truth Worship Center. 00:04:00And then when I was doing my, uh, dissertation and comps--comps and dissertation, I served a church in Central Pennsylvania, United in Christ Lutheran Church. So, I’m ordained ELCA, Evangelical Lutheran Church of America and the church that I served there, um, I really got involved in the anti-fracking movement. So, I did a lot of work to try to push back on the fracking industry in Central Pennsylvania. And, um, we can get into that if you want to know more at some point. But that was really where I did a lot of my activism, was in that part of--and that’s part of Appalachia too, you know, that’s, um, that part, um, that’s, uh, that’s all part of the corridor there. And, um, we were largely unsuccessful because the politicians were really bought out by the industry. 00:05:00And, um, but I did have some success with a community organizing effort around stopping a, um, proposed tire incinerator for our area, so that was very cool. Huge amount of work, but we stopped it and that was great. And around that same time, I got, um, the call to come here to Lexington and, um, started teaching here in 2016. And, um, yeah, so my, my activism work here has mostly focused on, um, connecting our students with an understanding of what’s going on in Appalachia. So, um, I’ve done two immersion trips where we take students to Eastern Kentucky and take them all kinds of different places to help them understand the intersections of, um, environment, faith, race, gender, uh, politics, and 00:06:00how do you tell the story about an area that has been, um, demeaned and stereotyped? Um, how do you listen to their story? And then how do you--because our students come from all over the country--how do you then go back and preach about this and tell their story in a way that honors them? So--and I’ve done some work--I’ve tried to highlight the work of the Kentucky Natural Lands Trust, um, did some writing about that. Um, done a little bit of work for the Poor People’s Campaign, but it’s been a couple years since that. But, um, mostly it’s, it’s, um, in, in this academic realm, um, that I’ve been doing a lot of work. Oh, and one other thing--so I also did--I worked for the University of--I didn’t work for them. I worked with somebody from the University of Kentucky who was doing a project called--(coughs) Healthy Trees, Healthy People. And it was to train citizen scientists 00:07:00to look at urban tree health. And it was a fantastic program. And I asked if I could, um, do a religious component to this, because I thought religious folks would be really interested and, um, participate. And we did, and it went really, really well. And out of that I developed some devotionals that then went into another book. So, um, so lots of different ways I’ve been trying to integrate my work, uh, at the local level.

KOMARA: That’s all amazing. I actually interviewed a restoration ecologist for this project.

SCHADE: Hmm--

KOMARA: --Kathy Senna--

SCHADE: --wow.

KOMARA: And somebody who worked for the Poor People’s Campaign, Terry Getten--

SCHADE: --there you go.

KOMARA: So that’s--I love all the overlap here.

SCHADE: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

KOMARA: Well, my goodness. You have had the most interesting life and I have, like, a thousand follow-up questions. Um, maybe I’ll ask first, um, you talked about how you initially got into environmental activism, like faith-based environmental activism, through 00:08:00fracking. And what sparked your passion to want to get involved?

SCHADE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. It actually goes back to when I was a kid. Um, my, my dad is a, um, he owned a nursery and garden center. And, um, he took me hunting and fishing from the time I was able to go into the woods. So, I traipsed around the woods around our hunting camp in, um, Huntingdon Township, um, Tell Township in Huntingdon County. You know, all—we're all growing up and there were times when I saw extreme logging going on. And so, the places where I would go and--I didn’t know it then--I didn’t have the words for this experience. But, um, I would go into the woods and feel closer to the divine 00:09:00than I did in church. I, I had, um, a very vivid memory of just walking in the woods and being astounded at the diversity of just everything. And, um, and I think at some point, I was, I was hearing the adults around me talk about, you know, um racism and, and, you know, Central Pennsylvania has a, has a not very good history around the KKK and white supremacy and all that sort of thing and--and it just became really clear to me in this sort of moment that diversity was actually what God intended for all of nature. And it just made sense that that’s what God wanted for all of humanity, too. So, all of the different cultures, languages, races, all of that is, is what needed to be. 00:10:00And if it did--if, you know, we just do monoculture --(laughs)-- that’s not good for the environment, it’s not good for the humans either. And I had that--again, I didn’t realize what, what it was, but I’d--I had that memory at a really young age of feeling this really deep in my soul. And, and then seeing the devastation, um, I, I, a creek that I played with--played in near my house, um, there were some weird chemicals being dumped into it, and the water would turn these weird shades of orange and get this foam on it, and the fish would all die. And I knew something wasn’t right. And I didn’t—I felt very powerless about that. Another area that I used to play in in my neighborhood that was a wooded area got just razed, and, um, dorms were built by the local college. And all of us in the—all the kids were just devastated. Like, nobody asked us. 00:11:00Like, this was our spot. This was sacred ground for us. And I remember talking to the adults in my life, saying, like, Why can’t we do something? And they’re like, It’s--you don’t--you don’t own the land. You don’t have the rights. You’re just a kid. There’s nothing you can do. And I just--I think that sparked a defiance in me to say, There’s got to be something that we can do. That I can do. And that’s what eventually intersected with when I went into ministry, I started an ecology ministry in the first church that I served. Because I wanted people to understand that there is a biblical and theological core of why we should we doing this as the church. So, I started this Eco ministry, and, um, some interesting stories around that, which we might get to at some point. But that eventually led me to realize, people aren’t making this connection, you know, that was twenty years ago that--I’ve been ordained since 00:12:00two thousand. So, um, so that’s been, like, over two decades and back then, people just were not making that connection. And so, I realize, I’ve got to do more work on this. And when I decided to go do the PhD program, then that became my niche.

KOMARA: What a great niche.

SCHADE: (laughs).

KOMARA: Uh, I, I would love to hear your thoughts expanding on--I read something that you wrote where you talked about, um, interpreting and applying the Bible through, uh, through like a green--

SCHADE: --a green lens--

KOMARA: -- reading--

SCHADE: --yeah, yeah.

KOMARA: It was just so beautifully written.

SCHADE: Yeah.

KOMARA: And, um, philosophically, I would love to hear it.

SCHADE: Yeah.

KOMARA: Like, give me the rundown. What--

SCHADE: --right.

KOMARA: What does this mean, theoretically--

SCHADE: --Mm-hmm [affirmative], mm-hmm [affirmative]--

KOMARA: --and what does it look like?

SCHADE: Well, if we start at the very beginning of the Bible

KOMARA: --Mm-hmm [affirmative]--

SCHADE: --where God creates all that we see, all that we know, and all that we don’t know, um, and, and calls it all good, the, the Hebrew word is tov, 00:13:00T-o-v. And, um, when humans come on the scene, humans are given the responsibility to, um, to take care of it. To, um, we are entrusted with the responsibility. And unfortunately, there are some churches and theologies that will interpret those texts like Genesis 1:28 that says, Okay, humans have dominion. They’ll interpret that as, Humans have domination. And they’ll completely ignore the whole rest of the chapter that shows that God’s not having dominion over any of them. Yes, God is, you know, creating all of this. But it is a self-giving, and, and, um, expansive, and generative, and regenerative system. And 00:14:00human beings are expected and responsible for, um, doing the same thing with the things that are put in our care. So, then you look at Genesis two--chapter, uh, chapter two to fifteen where--and this is a different--there’s two different stories. Two different authors of Genesis one and Genesis two, and the author in Genesis two talks about the human being is put into the garden to till and to keep. Those are words in Hebrew that connote almost being a student of Earth. Being, um, you just imagine the parent God--and I’m talking metaphorically here, I’m not a biblical literalist. I’m, you know, thinking metaphorically. But you imagine poetically, like, the divine parent bringing the child into the garden saying, Let me show you--you know--let’s figure out what we want to name these things. 00:15:00And, Let’s figure out how to, how to, how to make sure that they can stay alive and how it all works together. And, and it’s just this beautiful scene of reciprocity between humans and the, the rest of the created world. It’s not supposed to be this pyramid with humans on top and extracting and using everything just for the benefit of themselves. They’re supposed to be part of this web. So, um, so once I really started to understand that at that deep level and hearing other interpretations that did the exact opposite and used the biblical story to rationalize this very oppressive way of, um, looking at nature in terms of instrumental use, commodification, um, that--I just realized, like, I’ve got to say something about this. I’ve got to preach about it. I’ve got to teach others about this. And I have to help them find the language to be able to counter these folks 00:16:00who use the story to say, Yup. We can dig and frack and remove the mountains to get the coal that we want. And God says that we’re allowed to do this because we’re given dominion. And that is not what that means at all. So (laughs)--so when we are looking at scripture in terms of reading through a green lens, one of the things we have to understand is that the original hearers of these texts were in an agrarian society. They lived so close to the Earth. And so, um, issues about who has access to the land and the water? How are, you know, who gets access to the wealth that comes from this? How do we, um, how do we steward these things that have been entrusted to us? And, and you look in the gospels where Jesus, um, points to the birds of the air and the flowers of the 00:17:00field and goes into gardens and of--and trees and--they are his teaching partners. So, there is this, um, very close link between Jesus as a, as a teacher and the created world. And then the other thing I like to do is to show people if you read the crucifixion and resurrection stories through a green lens, you start to realize that things--that, that we center the human story, but there are elements of, you know, the rocks breaking apart and the sun hiding its face, and, and, um, then on the resurrection, you know, the stone rolls away. And, and, you know, they’re in a garden, for heaven’s sake. And Jesus is mistaken for a gardener when he’s first resurrected. Like, it’s not an accident --(laughs)-- that these things are there. This is all part of the story. So, I’m--my argument is that we need to--fore--bring things that were in the background and make them in the foreground 00:18:00to recognize that these, um, parts of creation are, are neighbors as much as our human neighbors. And when we use that as our basis for ethics and making decisions, then that changes everything.

KOMARA: Hmm, yeah, reminds me a bit of Robin Wall Kimmerer’s stance on animacy. (laughs).

SCHADE: There you go, she had a huge influence on me this year. I, um, uh, I actually don’t like the first chapter, where she criticizes the biblical story, because I think she misses something really important about that. But everything else --(laughs)-- and the, you know, the foundational myths. (coughs). The cosmology that she talks about with Turtle Island and all of that. That’s, that’s beautiful. But I think that, um, I’d love to have a conversation with her at some point to say, Don’t be too hard on Christianity. I think you’re missing 00:19:00some of these fundamental aspects that you’re kind of denigrating. Understandably, because Christianity has done so much horrific damage not only to the native peoples themselves, Indigenous peoples, but the land to which they are so connected. So, we absolutely need to sit at the feet of our Indigenous siblings and relearn what we should have learned the first time around.

KOMARA: Hmm, I just--it’s so wonderful to hear about your reading and interpretation. And you had mentioned that, you know, many Christians interpret, like, a text like Genesis, for example, in exactly the opposite way. Which is something that I hear a lot in Kentucky--

SCHADE: --Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Yeah. Yes, yes--

KOMARA: --that, you know, dominion does equal domination--

SCHADE: --yeah.

KOMARA: And I’m curious, you know, how did--how did you come to this reading, given that you were probably exposed to quite the opposite or at least conflicting views for a lot--

SCHADE: --Mm-hmm [affirmative]--

KOMARA: -- 00:20:00of your journey as, like, a theologian?

SCHADE: Yeah, um, I’ll tell you one of the things that started to make the shift for me is a conversation that I had with one of my confirmation students early on, who, um, so in the Lutheran church, we have what’s called confirmation. Where we do infant baptism, but then the students are supposed to, um, do what’s called confirmation so that they can own the faith for themselves, right? They’re not--we’re not making the decision for them, they are. And they affirm their baptism, they go through, like, a two-to-three-year program. Well, I had a student who went through this. Went to college and she came back, and I always try to take my youth out when they come back, and, you know, we went to Starbucks. And she told me, she said, “Pastor Schade. Have you ever heard 00:21:00of ecofeminism?” --(Komara laughs)-- And I was like, “Wait, what? Tell, tell me more.” And I couldn’t believe I had not heard about this. But you know, I’m in the church. I’m not in academia. And this is not, you know. But she’s in it, right? And she’s, she’s an undergrad, and she’s taking this course. She’s, she’s--man, that just--the bells. Like, the clouds opened up and the angels sang. And that just sent me on, on a complete journey to figure out, Okay, what does all this mean? And how do I connect ecofeminism with faith? um, yeah. That was, that was what really set me, like, this young person set me on this path. And that would have been probably about, hmm, fifteen years ago, maybe? Maybe seventeen. Um, 00:22:00yeah, it was just--it was a paradigm shift for me. And so, one of the things that I really wrestled with--because, like I said, I tried to develop a Lutheran Christology--a Lutheran ecofeminist Christology. So, I really had to think deeply about how feminists, um, really have a problem with the male God disrupting the natural process of life and death in order to, in a sense, say, Nope. I’m the male God. I’m going to resurrect my son. And death’s not going to count anymore. And that’s a real problem for, um, many ecofeminists. So, at the same time, I’m also learning about, um, trickster theology. 00:23:00Yeah. And that there are way--that, that--this is not about domination. This is about usurping empire, usurping--like, getting around, actually, the male-dominant, like--this is the end. And, and I talked about that Jesus is actually more of a trickster figure here. And, and, and, um, up-ends the narrative of, um, of, of violence is the only way to maintain order. And says, no. There is generativity in grace and forgiveness and love and nonviolence that, um, gets around your death machine. And that is--that’s where I went with it. 00:24:00So I thought--you know--uh, and now I’m not going to be able to remember her name. It’ll come to me, probably, and I’ll have to email you --(Komara laughs)-- but--is it Haraway who did that? Uh, I can’t remember. Anyway, I, I had a whole chapter on developing this ecofeminist trickster theology to say this, you know, it’s okay for us to embrace this. Because it’s doing, actually, the opposite of what you fear it’s doing. So I kind of flipped it. And that was pretty cool. (laughs).

KOMARA: Uh, this is all so cool to learn. Um, I know a fair amount about ecofeminism. Um, the homiletics part--

SCHADE: --Mm-hmm [affirmative]--

KOMARA: --explain that to a non ordained person. (laughs).

SCHADE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, Homiletics is simply the study of preaching.

KOMARA: Okay.

SCHADE: The study of the art, um, and practice of preaching. So, um, homileticians 00:25:00think about everything from rhetoric to, um, uh, the creative aspects of how you develop a sermon, the order in which you say things. I mean, there’s a lot of, you know, speech and communication theory that goes with it. But there’s also--and there’s the performative aspect of it. Um, so, uh, and, and of course, how do you interpret, you know, the hermeneutical aspect of it? Um, the theological? I’m the--I’m in the Academy of Homiletics and so, we’ve got, like, eight different work groups that look at all of these--homiletics is one of the practical areas of, of theology that integrates so many different areas. Because everything has to be communicated to an audience in a way that they can understand. 00:26:00So you--so I can’t just start throwing around terms like ecofeminism. That’s just going to, like--my listeners are going to glaze over, right? So, the way--so what I did was, I thought creatively about, okay, how can I convey this, um, the idea that, uh, that, that Earth is a being unto itself and needs to be respected and is in relationship with us? So, I developed a trilogy of sermons where I experimented with, um, taking on the voice and the character of a other than human part of the story. So, in one, I, I Am Earth, I am--I--I am telling the story--like the Genesis story--from Earth’s perspective. But then talking about how now, you know, humanity 00:27:00is, like, cutting off parts of me. And that I’m feeling--you know, I’m being violated, I’m choking on my own air--like, that sort of thing. And the way the sermon resolves is that a different voice talks about Jesus welcoming the children. And that Earth is one of those children. That, that, that, that, you know, so there’s a salvific aspect of Jesus’s ministry and, and God’s salvation that is incorporating of Earth and creation itself. So that was one, a second one, I--it was called, I Am Water, I Am Waiting. And I, I was the character of water, and I told the story of creation from water’s perspective. Talked about what it was like to baptize Jesus. Talked about, um, there’s a story, a parable, 00:28:00about--not a parable. There’s a story about Jesus with a Samaritan woman in a well. So, I tell the story from water’s perspective. Like, down in the well watching this and then being drawn up and seeing, you know--and I’m called hydor zoe, living water. And--but then I go into the fracking thing, where I talk about what’s it like to be water in this woman’s well. Where you can set me on fire, and she can’t bathe her children, and she can’t even drink the water. And--and I end with, um, telling the listeners, uh, reminding them of the passage in Romans that says, um, “All of creation groans in waiting for the revealing of the children of the God.” Like, I’m waiting for you, to live into what you’re supposed to be. So that was the second one, and the third one was, I Am Ruach, and ruach is the Hebrew word for spirit, 00:29:00wind, breath. And in this one, I take on climate change. And I talk about, um, what it was like to be breathed from God at the beginning and hover over Earth, and to create life out of that--out of my own breath, out of God’s breath. And I talk about, um, what it was like to, uh, breathe through Jesus, through his teachings. Um, I talk about, uh--but then I also do a scene where, like, he is crucified and the breath leaves him. And, um, but then--so there’s like these little scenes, right--these little vignettes. But then I’m--it’s the day of Pentecost and I’m alighting on each of the disciples and breathing through them a different language. And then finally I--it’s in present day and, um, I, you know, 00:30:00I have--and I use different cloths, um, drapes. So, in that--the last one I’m draped in a black cloth, because I can’t breathe, there’s pollution. And, um, at the end, the, the, the, uh, audience is left with my white wings and--or the dark shadow. And they, you know, the choice is yours, how you’re going to decide what to do with this. So, it leaves it very open-ended. So--and I’ve done this for lots and lots of audiences, churches, that sort of thing. And what I found is that instead of preaching at people, when you tell people the story, when you embody it for them, it creates a relationship. A rhetorical relationship between the listener and this aspect of creation. Where they’re rooting for the survival of earth, water, air, and realize, like, okay, I have a part to play in this. So, it’s not preachy and it's not wagging the finger at people. It’s really 00:31:00drawing them into this--into this narrative--into the story. To create that sort of parable-like shift for people.

KOMARA: Oh, that is so powerful. (Schade laughs). Okay. Yeah, so my understanding of homiletics was like, oh, like pedagogy for preaching, I get this.

SCHADE: Yeah--it is. There’s definitely an aspect of that.

KOMARA: Yeah.

SCHADE: Yes, yes.

KOMARA: This is--I mean, this is just very, very, very powerful and moving stuff. And I can tell you are just absolute fire --(Schade laughs)-- with a congregation. And I know you’ve also written a lot. I’m looking around your office and you have books everywhere. And I’m interested in how, you know, how you connect homiletics to writing specifically--

SCHADE: --Hmm. Mm-hmm [affirmative]--

KOMARA: --When you’re reaching an audience that you may never meet.

SCHADE: Right, right. Yeah, uh, I consider myself a public theologian. So, um, I have a blog, my EcoPreacher blog. I--I work with --(clears throat)-- a rabbi in Jerusalem who wrote a book, uh, cowrote a book--a two-series book called Ecobible. 00:32:00And, um, he’s the one that actually asked me to work with him on developing resources to interpret the biblical texts for pastors on a regular basis so that they can see, oh, that’s how this works. So, every month, we’re putting out this resource--free resource for pastors--busy pastors. To figure out, okay, how does this work? What are some examples that I can give? How can I connect this with--in my own community? Um, and, uh, the other thing that I do is I teach courses in this so that students can experiment with developing worship and liturgy resources and sermons. Um, I also work with, uh, an organization called the BTS Center and Creation Justice Ministries. And we have--this is really cool--so we started, um, so the EcoPreacher is, like, my thing--

KOMARA: --Mm-hmm [affirmative]--

SCHADE: --like, that’s my brand, right? 00:33:00And then I started with Yonatan, the rabbi Yonatan Neril, the EcoPreacher 1-2-3. Like, one is, what’s your one central idea? What are two questions? And what are three ways that you could enact this in your congregation, right? So, the BTS Center, which is--it used to be a seminary and now it’s just a continuing education--not just--it’s a huge continuing education, um, institution that has focused on, uh, theological education for a climate-changed world. Which is awesome, like, they’re doing the work. And they reached out to us and said, “Do you want to work with us to try to develop a cohort of pastors who do this on a regular basis? And we coach them on this?” And so, we’ve been doing--we started in November with this--we thought we might get, like, twenty or thirty people. We have about a hundred people that signed up for this. And it’s all online, 00:34:00and they--you know, it’s very low-cost, and we have speakers, we have kinship groups for them. They’re experience (??)--they’re doing sermons, they’re getting feedback on it. And we just applied for a, um, million and a quarter dollar grant from the Lily Foundation to take this big, like--a whole five-year grant to go into congregations and start studying what moves the needle when people listen to sermons. Like, what makes the difference? Um, because I’m really into the research aspect of this, too. So, I’ve done surveys of clergy and congregations over the past six years. Um, like, about three thousand clergy and about a thousand, um, uh, congregations--congregants. Um, about preaching and social issues. So, I’ve been tracking different topics that preachers address or 00:35:00stay away from in their sermons. And I’m particularly interested in environmental issues. And this is very encouraging--when I started this back in 2017, environmental issues were about--at, like, close to the bottom. Like, only about thirty percent of pastors said they talked any--mentioned anything about it. Well, in 2021, we saw that number go up to about fifty percent--great. That means we’re still, like, half of pastors are not talking about what I think is the existential crisis of our time, because it connects to all the other crises. Well, we just did it in January and we found that, um, it’s up to about seventy-five percent of pastors saying that they’re talking about this. That’s huge, that is a huge shift. And I think part of it is because people are realizing it’s not in the future. And when you talk about the ‘not in my backyard’, it is in everybody’s backyard--literally. They’re seeing that there are less 00:36:00birds, less butterflies, the growing, um, season has changed, um, they’re getting the fires, the floods, the droughts, the--everything. So, it’s not as political an issue, anymore--it’s still political, but you can talk about this. So, um, yeah, so, those are some of the things, you know, I could go on and on and on about this, --(both laugh)-- light my fire and off I go. (laughs).

KOMARA: Well, yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s really--that’s a really encouraging statistic.

SCHADE: It is.

KOMARA: Seventy-five percent--

SCHADE: --Yes, yes, yeah.

KOMARA: --that is really encouraging--

SCHADE: --yes.

KOMARA: And I would love to hear, um, you know, what you think, like, the Bible, Christianity, faith more generally perhaps--

SCHADE: --Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Mm-hmm [affirmative]--

KOMARA: --offers in the way of, you know, lessons about thinking about climate change--

SCHADE: --Hmm--

KOMARA: --and also about, like, what we should actually do.

SCHADE: Yes, yes, yes. This is one of the points of pushback that some Christians 00:37:00will use to say that the Bible doesn’t--we can’t talk about this in church because the Bible doesn’t say anything about climate change. Well, on one--on the one hand, you could say, right, they didn’t have the language about that. Well, they didn’t talk about buttons either, but you’re still putting buttons on your clothing unless you’re Amish, right? (laughs)--you know? Um, but there are actually stories of cataclysmic environmental issues that happen, okay? So, the first one is the flood and --(clears throat)-- you look at what was it that led to the flood in the first place? It was that humanity was so violent towards each other and towards the land that--and now some will say, well, you know, God’s mean and just wiped them out. I am, um, 00:38:00I look at it more of--this is a consequence of what happens when you do certain things. It’s not God, like, you know, “Smite me, oh, smitey smiter”, you know? (Both laugh). Jim Carrey, right? (Komara laughs). No, this is, this is a consequence of this. And you’re warned about it. Like, the prophets come along and say, look, if you do this, these terrible things are going to happen. And then the terrible things happen and they say, oh, well, God must not love us anymore. No, you were warned, right? Okay, so you got the flood, and, and after the flood, God says, alright, I’m not—I’m not doing this anymore. I’m putting my rainbow in the sky. It’s the sign of the covenant. Everything flourishes. Great. Well, the next time that there is a huge cataclysmic event is after the, um, the, the Israelites are in bondage in Egypt. And you have these--this whole series of horrible things. You know, the, 00:39:00the water turns to blood, the plagues of the locusts, and the flies, and, uh, uh, the boils on the skin. And, um, eventually, you know, the angel of death comes. This is all in response to empire, to oppression, to Egypt’s theology that says, Pharoah is God. And you need to worship Pharoah. You need to do whatever Pharoah says. And all of these other little gods, you know, there’s, like, a frog god and there’s a sun god and all this, like, the whole thing is like, I’m Pharoah. I control all of these gods. So, the story is like--the real God says, Pfft. No --(both laugh)-- let me show you who’s really God here. And demolishes that very harmful worldview and narrative that says, 00:40:00‘Humans control everything.’ And eventually that leads to the, um, the--liberating the oppressed. Alright, and then--so anytime you have these cataclysmic weather events and they’re connected to something divine, it’s--you know, when there’s droughts. When there’s, you know, things that are predicted in, you know, for the apocalypse. It’s all because of the way in which human beings think they’re God, act like they’re God, and don’t follow the very basic commandments to love your neighbor and love God. When you don’t do that, everything breaks down, when you do that, things are going to be alright. You’re going to be blessed in the land of milk and honey.

KOMARA: Okay. So--

SCHADE: --so, when it comes to climate change 00:41:00and, uh, and so--and actually, one of the books that I cowrote with my colleague is called Apocalypse When: Reading and Interpreting Apocalyptic Texts. And there’s--there are some Christians who will look at these apocalyptic texts that say, well, Jesus is coming back, so we don’t have to do anything. Um, we actually want to destroy the earth because that’s going to make Jesus come back faster--

KOMARA: --oh my lord--

SCHADE: --you know, that’s a terrible, that’s terrible theology. That is theological malpractice, as, um, Reverend Dr William Barber puts it. Um, that is not what it says at all, like, you don’t get to control this, you don’t get to tell the time, you are responsible for taking care of this. And when you don’t, these horrible things are going to happen. So, when we look at what’s happening with the climate crisis and we’re seeing that we are not following the, uh, the, the laws 00:42:00that God put in place in nature--I mean, you’re supposed to leave the plants and the ecosystems to do their work of sequestering the carbon. Like, that’s what was able to create the atmosphere that we breathe in the first place. So, when you, when you mess with that, you’re putting all of life in jeopardy. And it’s because of the human hubris that thinks that we can take whatever we want, do whatever we want, and, and God will just clean up our mess for us. Big daddy in the sky is going to just clean it up for us. No, that is not the story at all. Mm-mm [negative]. The other thing that, that--in terms of the climate crisis--is that we are taught in the New Testament that we are to care for the least of these. So, that’s those most vulnerable. So, the people who are most affected and often 00:43:00contribute the least to the problem are the ones that we need to be prioritizing. So, we need to be listening to, um, the, you know, the coastal fishing villages, and the, um, you know, the, the Indigenous peoples, and, um, uh, communities of color living in Louisiana’s Cancer Alley. Like, listen to those people who have suffered, follow their lead, learn how to survive, and get out of the way. Like, it’s--like white supremacy has got—white, white supremacist capitalism is--that is, like, the exact opposite of what everything the Bible teaches. And yet they use scripture to justify what they’re doing. So, this is--it really is a battle of, like, life and death here. Of--and that’s why story is so important--the story that we’re telling. And so, one of my jobs as a homiletician--in my own small way 00:44:00and now with the students that I teach is to be able to--again, to give language, to tell the story, to push back on these harmful narratives that are trying to justify oppression and, and domination and patriarchy. Like, you know, all of this--like my cup says, “I’ve got ninety-nine problems and white heteronormative patriarchy is basically all of them.” My theologian friend who just retired that--she gave that to me as a gift. (Komara laughs).

KOMARA: Thats’s a great mug. (laughs). Well, you’ve spoken so passionately about, you know, how you operate as an educator and a minister. How you teach other people, to teach the faith, to teach stewardship. Like, I --(laughs)-- as an average person would love to know, like, what should the rest of us be doing from your perspective--

SCHADE: --Hmm, hmm, hmm--

KOMARA: --Like what can we do to address global climate change and just environmental crisis?

SCHADE: Yes. Yes. Community, build community. That is the most important thing right now. 00:45:00Um, there is a great, um, writer, her name is Debra Rienstra. And she has built on the concept of refugia, R-E-F-U-G-I-A. She wrote a book on refugia faith. Refugia in biology is, like, if there’s a volcano and everything blows up, there are little niches of life that survive. And then you come back, like, ten, fifteen years later, and the mountain’s okay again and your like, ‘how did that happen?’ It’s because of these little niches that created safe space for life to be able to, to survive. Well, we are heading into--I mean, we’re not heading into--we’re in it. We’re in a--I mean, just look at everything, I mean--who’s going to survive that heat wave? I mean, like, we’re creating this band of heat around the middle of the earth that people are going to be fleeing from. 00:46:00And so we’re going to--oh, this is another way the Bible can be helpful. Another way to look at the Bible is it’s a story about migrating people. People are always moving, they’re moving to find food, they’re moving to find water, they’re moving to escape death and oppression and all--it’s all about migration. And there’s lots of stories, and there’s commands that say, “When the migrant comes into your country, you have to treat them as a citizen.” Like, you can’t say, we’re going to build a wall and keep you out. That is not biblical, at all. That is absolutely unbiblical. So, we have to be thinking about how we can create, um, um, the safe space for those seeking refuge. We need to be able to build community with our, um, friends and neighbors. (clears throat). One of the things I think has an advantage in Appalachia is that 00:47:00they learned how to create community because they were often isolated and cut off from everything because of the mountains. But they learned how to rely on each other, and they learned how to, um, you know, the barter economy, that’s one of the things that they think could really help Appalachia come back from this extract, extraction economy is, like, embrace a barter economy. Where, like, I do something for you, you do something for me, we don’t even worry about exchanging money. We’re just--we’re building community, we’re building relationships. So, when I, um, you know, when I--if churches can be places that allow that to happen, you know, um, doing community gardens, locking arms and going to the protest, getting together and writing letters to your, um, elected officials and to CEOs. And you know, just talking about it. That one of the most interesting things--there’s an organization called Blessed Tomorrow, it’s part of Eco-America. And 00:48:00they’ve been doing studies about Americans’ attitudes about climate change. And they’re finding that Americans’, uh, concern about climate change is definitely increasing. But if you ask, like, “How concerned are you?” “Very concerned.” “How concerned do you think are your friends and neighbors?” “Mildly concerned.” So, they’re concerned, but they don’t think that their friends and neighbors are concerned. So, they’re not talking about it, because they’re afraid to talk about it, because they think nobody’s worried about this. So, churches can be a place that create spaces for conversation. So, one of the things that, that I’ve also done in a book that I wrote called Preaching in the Purple Zone is to teach clergy and congregations how to have difficult conversations about social issues. And I developed something called the sermon-dialogue-sermon process. Where you preach a sermon that is invitational that says, I don’t have all of the answers, but I’m really interested in the questions, and the Bible 00:49:00obviously deals with these kinds of questions too. And so, let’s come together and have a conversation about this. And then we use, um, issue guides--nonpartisan issue guides--to moderate a discussion about this. And then there’s a follow-up sermon where the preacher has listened to the conversation that the people have had and integrated it into the sermon to say, okay, this is what we learned from each other. This is where we might feel called to go. It’s very organic because what one church does is different from another church. But it’s, it’s about contextual, um, um relevancy and getting people to say, okay, this--these are my people, these are my folks. I want to work with them, I love them, this is who I’m called to be. So, we did this--I've done this with, um, an issue called--an issue guide called, uh, Climate Choices. And in the guide, there are three different options for how to think about the climate crisis. One is to reduce carbon emissions, the second is to accelerate 00:50:00technology, and a third, um, uh, is to prepare for the worst. They are not competing with each other, they’re simply, like, these are different approaches--different ways that we can think about this. And in a dialogue, you weigh the pros and the cons of each of these approaches. And then at the end, you think about, okay, what are the values that we have in common? That we can say, alright, I may disagree on policy with my conservative friend over here, but we both agree that caring for children and the future of children is important. Okay, if that’s the case, let’s find at least one thing that we can do to move forward on this issue. It’s not, maybe not real big, but it’s one--we’re a step further than we were before when we weren’t even talking about this at all. So that’s one thing I think needs to happen. The other thing I would love to see is just more leadership from, from the top, you know? Bishops, um, Presbyteries, 00:51:00um, um, of course, Pope Francis has done phenomenal work on this. But this is—this is an all-hands-on deck moment, we have all got to come together, we’ve got to make bridges across denominational divides, religious divides--I coedited a book with my colleague, Margaret Bullit-Jonas called Rooted and Rising: Voices of Courage in a Time of Climate Crisis. And we, um, we brought together twenty-one religious environmental activists. And we asked them, “How are you sustaining yourself in the dark night of the green soul?” Like, we’ve been doing, you know, many of them have been doing this for decades, and it’s not getting better--it’s getting worse. So how do you get up in the morning? Right? And keep doing this, and they wrote these just--they’re not scholarly, they’re just, like, from the heart, like, this is what we do. But it--one--you know, we had Muslim, Unitarian, um, Christian, um, um, gay, straight, uh, uh, Latina, Black, 00:52:00White, uh, Indigenous. Like, we tried to get all of these different voices in, to show that we all need to be pulling together on this. So the more that we can create these connections between these different, um, entities and really be pulling together on this--connecting young people and the elders and everybody in between, this is--that’s what we need. That’s what we need.

KOMARA: Hmm, yeah, I had read a little snippet from your Preaching in the Purple Zone book--

SCHADE: --Hmm--

KOMARA: --where you talked about that--

SCHADE: --yeah.

KOMARA: And I--it just--I love, love your approach. But you know, especially in Kentucky, where, you know, like the big rhetoric machines, like big coal for example--

SCHADE: --Yup. Yup--

KOMARA: --make it, like, an immutable political--

SCHADE: --yes--

KOMARA: --and often religious divide. Like, somebody in another interview brought up the fact that, um, you know, like, insurance companies and coal companies basically 00:53:00invented the phrase ‘an act of God’ to make, to make something seem like--

SCHADE: --right--

KOMARA: --it could not be changed.

SCHADE: --they have no responsibility for it.

KOMARA: Right--

SCHADE: --yes, yes--

KOMARA: --and I just--I don’t know. If you have any additional thoughts on, like, how we can work in a really, really fraught, politically divisive time in which I think religion is particularly mobilized in order to reinforce those divides.

SCHADE: Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, and, and you know, what makes this so difficult is, um, well, there’s, there’s so many things that make this difficult. You know, the hollowing out of public education, people don’t have the--develop the critical thinking skills to look at a bumper sticker that says, ‘friends of coal’. Okay, let’s, let’s break this down a little bit. How can you be a friend to a piece of coal? What does that mean? Does it mean you’re going to be a friend of a coal miner? 00:54:00Okay, if that’s the case, then why aren’t we providing medical care for those who got black lung and sacrificed themselves for us? Why aren’t we training them for other jobs when--because, you know, one of the things that my class learns--we go to, um, um--what’s the mine in Lynch? Um, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a mine that’s been turned into a museum--

KOMARA: --oh, that's um, portal thirteen--

SCHADE: --portal. Portal twenty-three I think is what it’s called.

KOMARA: Yeah. It’s a number--

SCHADE: --yeah, yeah--

KOMARA: --portal something. It’s a great place--

SCHADE: --it is, it is. So, and, and the two times that we went, the students asked the, the, the coal miner who’s going--like, you know, “So, is coal coming back?” You know, because Trump made that promise. And the guy’s like, “Coal ain’t coming back. These machines can rip through these seams faster 00:55:00than a hundred men in a day. And you know, in ten minutes, it can rip through this. It’s not--we know that, we know that.” So, okay, if that’s the case, what can we do to put in industry that is going to actually--you know, whether it’s making--you know, solar panels or geothermal or something that they can feel proud of their work. And not be destroying the very earth that’s supposed to be sustaining their children generations into the future. I would love to see that. But, you know, we’ve--we have so brainwashed people and hollowed out public education so they can’t think critically about this. And then the role of the church in these conservative Christian things, where it’s all about a patriarchal society where the male says, this is how it’s going to be, and everybody else has to be submissive. You know, 00:56:00it’s like, Shiny Happy People, have you seen that yet? (Komara laughs). Yeah, so, that’s a huge portion of Christianity that is going to just do what they’re told and not think critically about this. So, I, you know, if I’m invited to engage in a conservative platform or with conservative folks, I almost always say yes. Because I want to at least have the conversation. I don’t usually change minds, but people--you never know when seeds will be planted. And somebody wakes up and says, oh, wait a minute. You know, the cognitive dissonance gets in there. So, um, yeah, you know, going, going places, talking to people, listening to people. Um, that--I do think that makes a difference, building those relationships.

KOMARA: Hmm, and you’ve, you’ve talked a lot about, like, discourse and narrative in this conversation. 00:57:00And I guess I’m just kind of personally curious as a social scientist who’s really into language. Like, given that language is incredibly powerful. And I think religious language is incredibly powerful. I think language around, like, animacy, the body, right--

SCHADE: --yes, yes--

KOMARA: --is really powerful. Um, I don’t know, what kind of language have--and obviously, the coal companies use it, right? They talk about, you know, the earth as, like, an entity as opposed to a body, which I hear a lot of theologians do because how, how can you hurt something if it’s inanimate, right?

SCHADE: Right.

KOMARA: I’m curious, like, what, you know, narrative-wise, rhetorically, in terms of, like, discourse, like, what does reach people--

SCHADE: --Mm-hmm [affirmative]--

KOMARA: --in your opinion? To get them to care about the Earth as, you know….

SCHADE: Yeah, one of the things I’ve found, um, that can be really helpful is to, um, in the midst of either a, a sermon or a teaching moment to have people articulate 00:58:00a place in nature where, that, that they love. Where they feel the presence of God, however, they understand God. And, um, and to tell us about that place and to, um, um, make it come alive, you know, in that moment. Even, even in the room. And, um, and then I’ll ask a question like, you know, what bad things have happened to this place? And there’s usually this moment of silence of, like, well, there’s a lot of pollution. Or, um, well, our beach-house got washed away. Or, you know, there’s, there’s pain there. And a lot of times, the, the rhetoric of anger and violent language, those are hard things that are covering up the soft underbelly of pain, and loss, and grief. And sometimes if you can get people to, 00:59:00um, sit with that grief and to lament, and we’ve got great biblical resources for this --(laughs)-- like--

KOMARA: --Hmm--

SCHADE: --there’s a lament all over the scriptures, right? To say, you know, it is okay to feel sad about this and you love, like, it’s about love. You know, you love this place, this place loved you, there was a relationship there, and it has changed because of this. So--and, and then you make that shift, okay, what could we do differently? Yeah, I know we’re getting close to--

KOMARA: --oh, no--

SCHADE: --being out of time here--

KOMARA: --I’m just making sure I’m not wearing you out--

SCHADE: --no, no. I’m good. Probably in about fifteen minutes, I’ll, I’ll need to wrap up--

KOMARA: --(laughs). Okay, sure--

SCHADE: --um, but yeah. So, to make that shift and to say, okay, what could you do? What would be different? What would it look like? One of the, um, one of the most powerful things about preaching is when, when a preacher can articulate, um, 01:00:00can envision a future that does not yet exist and get people excited about it. To ask, what if? I wonder, what would it look like if? This prophetic visioning of a better future. And that’s not just about pie in the sky wishful thinking kind of thing. That’s not what this is about, this is about, okay--you know, the power of language. Once you have spoken it, then you start to ask, okay, what is one thing that we could do to move just a little bit forward on this? And, you know, if you study the social movement theory, like, once you get one win under people’s belts, and they’re like, wow, we did it. We, we did it--It can’t be about I, It’s got to, got to be about the we. So, we did this, and that starts to create energy and momentum for, okay, what else can we do? Let’s 01:01:00keep moving forward on this. And I do this because I love the people that I’m working with, we have these relationships. Yes, let’s keep going forward on this. Um, so, those are some of the, the ways I think in which language can be, um, inspirational and literally create a different reality because you’re speaking it. First you speak it, you know--first you, first you think it, then you say it, then you do it. (laughs).

KOMARA: Mm-hmm [affirmative], Mm-hmm [affirmative], oh, awesome. And you know, what do you think--like you--I loved hearing that statistic that, you know, seventy-five percent of people are at least talking about environmental issues in their sermon. You know, what do you think--I don’t know--what do you think the future is going to look like in your field? Like, in ministry? And what do you hope for?

SCHADE: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, you know what, I told you when I first started this work, nobody was talking about environment 01:02:00with, with homiletics. Like, I did this--I was, you know, just starting out and everybody looked at me like I had two heads. Like, it was just not on anybody’s radar. It was a very lonely place to be. And then little by little, people, you know, I just, I just kept repeating it, and doing it in all kinds of creative ways, and just kept doing it and doing it. And then there was a shift where one of the presidents of the Academy decided to do the theme on preaching and the environment. And she asked me to do a thing for the Academy on, um, uh, ecofeminism and preaching. And all--like, like that opened the door, and had been--I keep going since then and do all this work. And now I’m the first vice-president of the Academy, and next year I’ll be the president--I’ll get to choose the theme. And, um, and now, uh, that I’ve been on the committee--the executive committee, and I’ve been talking with people. 01:03:00And one person who is a postcolonial homiletician, she’s from Korea, and she’s very excited about environmental issues, and so we started talking. And, like, let’s start a work group about preaching and environment and the climate crisis and we did that this past year. And our work group had the most attendance of any of the other work groups. Now, part of that’s because it’s new, right? But here we got--you know, ten years ago, when I first started, nobody was talking about it. You know, ten years later, this is like--people realize, oh my gosh. So, I feel good that I helped to create a space for this and now people have some models. And lots of people are now writing about this. We’ve got, like, a whole bunch of papers being presented this year, right? So, so, at the academic level, my peers are doing this and they’re realizing, I need to equip my students to be able to preach about this. To, you know, frame this 01:04:00biblically and theologically and ethically and all of those things. So, I think that’s just going to continue. The really big thing is how we’re going to help people, first of all, um, mobilize to save what we can because we’re losing, we’re losing so much. I mean, we’re in the sixth great extinction, I have no, uh, you know, we are heading into what I call the Good Friday of this planet. We are in the midst of the--of what I call the ‘eco-crucifixion’. And, um, so we are going to have to think as a church about how we help people articulate their grief and their lament. But also, how we advocate, again, for those most vulnerable. How do we create community? How can churches shift 01:05:00from, like, arguing about stupid things like all these things that have divided us? It’s like, look, we are dying here, people this church can be a place where people come together when there’s an emergency, right? You know, like, how do we outfit ourselves to be refugia? How can we do that? Are we going to be part of the solution? Or are we going to be having our petty little theological arguments while the earth is burning and sinking? Burning and flooding, I should say. So, I want to see us do--you know, it’s the Methodist John Wesley’s--“Do as much good as you can, for as many people as you can, for as long as you can, however you can.” That is what we need to do and if we all do this collectively and move away from the self-centered individual salvation theology that’s like, oh, it’s just me and Jesus. And as long as I’m getting to heaven, the rest of y’all can go to hell, including the earth. 01:06:00If we can, you know, minimize that, you know--it’s never going to go away. If we--but if we can minimize that and maximize the community, the kingdom of God, we can--we can’t save the earth. But we can participate in doing as much good as we can for as much time as we have left. And I want to be part of doing the right thing.

KOMARA: Yeah, wow --(laughs)-- well said. What’s, what’s next for you? You know, what kind of projects are you wanting to get into? Career shift? Personal? Passion?

SCHADE: Yeah, well, my kids--my son’s sixteen, he’s going to be a sophomore. My daughter is a, uh--no, he is a sophomore, he’s going to be a junior. My, my daughter’s a junior at Berea. And 01:07:00so, you know--and so the reason I do this is because I feel an obligation. I have, I have to be able to look at them and say, honey, I did the best I could. I did everything I could. And, um, I’m accountable to them. So, um, so that aspect of things --(both laugh)-- um, um the next book that I’m work--I just finished, um, um, Introduction to Preaching with two of my colleagues. So, um, that’s been a huge thing, that’s like my magnum opus. Uh, an intro--a preaching textbook. So, the next one is, um, the--it’s going to be called preaching--Preaching and Social Issues, uh, Tactics and Strategies for Empowering your Prophetic Voice, or something like that. So, I just signed the contract for that, um, and I’m going to be working on that book. Um, if we get this grant to do the EcoPreacher thing, that’s going to be huge. Then we’re talking about, like--we’re looking at thousands of people that we’re going to be reaching through this, 01:08:00this program and these different things that we’re doing. Uh, uh, so I really, uh--we’re going to keep doing what we’re doing on a small scale if we don’t get the grant, but if we do, it’s going to be huge. I really think it’s going to be a gamechanger--

KOMARA: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

SCHADE: --in terms of, like, taking this to the next level of making it a household word in churches.

KOMARA: Yeah, what an awesome goal.

SCHADE: And as president of the Academy next year, um, you know, continuing to do this work of building bridges between all of these different areas and empowering the, the next group coming up, um, yeah, so, all that. (laughs).

KOMARA: Yeah, uh, wonderful things.

SCHADE: Yeah.

KOMARA: Well, is there anything else we should know --(Schade laughs)-- that I haven’t asked you? (laughs).

SCHADE: I think you got--like, you asked all the good--you asked all the right questions. And, um, I probably gave you way more --(laughs)-- than you needed. 01:09:00But there it is, uh, if I think of anything else, I’ll let you know. But I, I think this pretty much, this pretty much covers everything that I think is important to know about this work.

KOMARA: Or I guess I should ask as a preacher, like, any last words to leave us with? (Both laugh). You’re all very good at that.

SCHADE: Yeah. No, this is, um, uh, like I said, I’m, I’m just really grateful that you’re giving voice to people that don’t normally have, um, like, that--who, who would care about what some of us are doing. So, you’re preserving it for posterity. Sometimes I think of what we’re doing as, um, just in general, in the environmental work, is we’re putting a message in the bottle and we’re, we’re, you know, there’s going to be a remnant that’s left. And they’re going to be able to look and say, okay, some people got it right. Some people really tried to do the right thing 01:10:00and had some blueprints. And we can follow this. And we can, you know, we, we can do better. We can, um, we can make different choices. Because there were some people who were doing this, and we have--we’ve got some precedent here. We’ve got some ideas for where we might go forward. So that’s another reason why I’m doing that, like, if somebody’s coming after us and can look and say, oh, yeah, let’s do it like that--

KOMARA: --yeah--

SCHADE: --because this other way didn’t work. (laughs).

KOMARA: Well, I am super personally and professionally stoked --(Schade laughs)-- to have this interview particularly--

SCHADE: --oh, good--

KOMARA: --in the project. So, Leah, thank you so much.

SCHADE: Yes, yes--

KOMARA: --for sitting down with us--

SCHADE: --you’re very welcome, very welcome. (laughs).

KOMARA: Um, I’m going to turn off this recorder now. Now--did it--are you kidding me? Good thing I--

[End of interview.]