Interview with Elisa Owen, June 29, 2023

SALO: So, this interview is with Eliza Owen--it’s Elisa. I’m sorry. -- (laughs) -- This interview is with Elisa Owen. And it’s conducted by Hayley Salo. It is June 29th, 2023, and we are meeting in a Zoom call from Louisville, Kentucky. The interview will be part of the Kentucky Climate Oral History Collection, which is sponsored by the Kentucky Climate Change Consortium. The Kentucky Climate Change Consortium is working on an oral history research project that is sponsored by the Kentucky Oral History Commission. The Climate Research, Policy, and Activism Kentucky project will collect interviews from Kentuckians who have been involved in three climate-related areas: research, policy, and activism. The collection will be housed at the Louis B. Nunn Center for Oral History and will be fully accessible to the public. Thank you for agreeing to share your work and experience with us.

OWEN: [?? WORD UNCLEAR] and I took a job with a consulting firm that was doing restructuring and privatization in the electric sector. And so, I enjoyed the work, but in the area 00:01:00where we were just dealing with vertically integrated utilities, I didn’t see how I was going to make an impact in the world with that work. I thought I was just going to help vertically integrated utilities get richer. And so, I went to seminary. And I--but I’ve always had this electric sector regulatory and policy background. Right? And I know--what I would say is a lot more than the average bear about the electric sector works. And it turns out--I believe the figure people are quoting these days is that thirty percent of emissions are due to the energy sector. And so, that is by no means the majority of emissions. But it’s a pretty big chunk. And so, to the extent that we can use regulatory policy and 00:02:00energy policy to make it--my tradition as a Christian [?? WORD UNCLEAR] 00:03:00and Christianity talks a lot about what life abundant is. And I will be the first to say that what I don’t think life abundant is, is trying to live on a planet that is incapable of supporting all of God’s children. Right? And so, that is the threat we face with climate change. And so, here with those kind of dual aspects of my background, I have been--I kind of circled back around. I was in the pastorate for a while. And now have circled back around to advocacy and policy as it relates to the climate. And obviously, in the Christian tradition as well--or maybe not obviously for people who aren’t Christian 00:04:00listening to this, there is a fair amount of imperative for us to be stewards of the natural world. And therefore, it doesn’t make sense for Christians not to care about this issue. In a nutshell. So, here I am. And this is how I got here, kind of with these--kind of policy on one side, and certainly moral and ethical responsibility on both sides. Because I’m interested in policy because of its potential to do good in the world. Right? I believe that politics has the potential to do good in the world. And so, given all that, I arrived here at KIPL and have been working on energy efficiency 00:05:00and distributed generation and everything in between that has to do with trying to mobilize a religious response--not just Christian, but it’s interfaith. Mobilize a religious response in this state so, that we can make a difference in terms of how we’re approaching the crisis of the climate.

SALO: I can definitely see where--oops, sorry. Go ahead.

OWEN: I was just going to say is that kind of what you were looking for?

SALO: Yes.

OWEN: How I got here? So, that’s it in a nutshell.

SALO: I can definitely see where the transition from working in the electric sector to working in climate change activism has its benefits. Because as you were saying, you have the skills that you need and the knowledge that you need from that sector to apply it to your current work. So, that’s --that’s a wonderful application of your former work. I was curious, too, are you from Kentucky originally? Or did you come here after-- 00:06:00OWEN: --Yes, yes. I was born and raised in Kentucky. In Louisville. My father actually still works at the University of Louisville at eighty-three. He is in the archives. And he has--he has been on the faculty in History off and on throughout his time there. And so, we--he--my parents were born and raised in Louisville. And then I was born and raised in Louisville with my father on faculty and staff at U of L. And then for college, I went away down in Atlanta. And I was in the Northeast for graduate degrees. And then I ended up coming back to Louisville when I got married and had children. And so--to be close to family actually. And so, 00:07:00[?? WORD UNCLEAR] Yes. Born and raised out and about back.

SALO: Did you find that the time you spent in other states impacted your perception of climate change in Kentucky? Or is it mostly your personal experiences growing up here in a family here that have kind of kept your ties to Kentucky?

OWEN: Certainly, I mean (pause) I’m not—certainly, family ties have kept my ties to Kentucky. I also was very interested as a child in camping and being outdoors. And I did some of that in Kentucky and some of that in other states. But I also, you know, when--you don’t have to live here very long before you know the state’s 00:08:00historical connection to coal. And so, certainly as, as we were talking about in the Nineties, when I was first doing electric sector stuff--when I was--as we were talking about making generation at least--electric generation market based, I was somewhat interested in that. But again, it took me a little bit to understand how the regulatory regimes in different states were going to really affect our ability to do what we need to do, in terms of the energy transition. So, at this point, I’m back in Kentucky because of family. I want Kentucky to be the best Kentucky it can be. I spend some time, but hopefully not too much, being frustrated about how our politics makes it difficult to be Christians. As it, 00:09:00as it, as it refers to stewarding the planet. I mean, for me, God calls us to steward the climate and steward the planet. And at that--at this point, that means moving away from coal. And it’s not--besides the fact that that’s the case, coal is not economically viable. And we’ve got politicians in the state that don’t talk about it like that. They act like there are enemies other than pure economics that are driving us away from coal. And so, that’s kind of how my association with this state affects my work. And you know, I came back because of Midwestern values. And I appreciate those, but I also get frustrated with the political reality here sometimes.

SALO: That makes sense. Especially, as you said, that you worked 00:10:00in the electric sector before--so, you were seeing the--kind of the confluence of challenges from different fields. Kind of all bringing together.

OWEN: Absolutely, absolutely. And I--and I also, you know, am aware that, you know, to the extent that we refuse to address climate in our energy policy and our regulation, we set ourselves back. And we already struggle with our number, in terms of--in the United States, in terms of education, and you know, the creation of jobs and all of that. And I see preparing one’s grid for the future--

SX: It’s fifteen-thirty.

OWEN: --as a job creation effort. Right? And so, it’s--I’m not sure how people don’t see it that way. --(chuckles)-- Because in order to have the jobs-- 00:11:00I worked in India, right? And I know that India was struggling to get foreign investment. Because they didn’t have a reliable electric grid. And so, if you don’t have a reliable electric grid, then you can’t attract a Toyota to Kentucky. You can’t attract a battery factory. And resilience and climate resilience is very important for the electric grid. So, again, to me, it should be a bipartisan effort to try to update our grid and make it--and prepare it to be resilient in the age that we are entering.

SALO: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It also makes me wonder, too, if you had any particular mentors or partners along the way that led you to either KIPL or the other ways you’re--combining your history in the electric industry with the Interfaith Society and with climate change. Or if it’s mostly kind of been a finding your own path. 00:12:00OWEN: Certainly, I’ve been doing, I've been--ever since I’ve been ordained, I’ve been doing some pastoral ministry. And then also been doing other efforts in nonprofits. For example, I was with Breaking New Grounds, which was a small nonprofit the Heine brothers started to try to, to get--try to take their grounds and grow greens with them. And they did that by mixing their greens with some wood chips. And some spent barley grains. So, that was kind of environmentally based, right? That was the farm to table 00:13:00effort. We were trying to sell our greens to restaurants downtown. I was trying to make it a social enterprise. And that agriculture, it--when you look at big sectors that affect the climate, agriculture is another huge one. And so--I don’t know what the exact breakdown is. But I think it’s close to thirty, or maybe a little more, even. And so, given that I’ve worked, I worked there and then I also was working on a business to try to onshore the supply chain for hemp. So, that we could do products--material sustainability with fiber from hemp. And so, I did some of that also. So, I only say that to say that my,my pastoral career and my interest in sustainability has, has, you know--I think of them as intertwined like a DNA strand, right? --(chuckles)-- 00:14:00You know, they kind of--I’ve done both and as I’ve--as I’ve been moving along. And so, I don’t know that I would say mentors. But I would say--well, a mentor would be my father, who was in the city government. Started the recycling program in Louisville. And when we were young, would take us out to the U of L football stadium and have us pick up all the aluminum beer cans in the stands. And pour out beer. And we would come out of there smelling like beer. And we were, like, seven, and nine, and eleven. And my mom would be like, “What are you doing?” And my dad would say, “We’re going to recycle these and it’s going to be eleven dollars.” --(chuckles)-- And so, he was a mentor.

SALO: That’s a fantastic way to start a recycling career as a kid. Going around--

OWEN: --(laughs)--

SALO: --and cleaning up the areas for the other people.

OWEN: Right. Right. You mean pouring beer on your feet? --(laughs)--

SALO: --(laughs)-- Yes. 00:15:00And for, you know, the end goal of recycling them.

OWEN: Right. Right.

SALO: Which also made me think of some of the things that the KIPL website has posted for community members to work through. Yeah. Because it seems like there is a split there between advocacy and lobbying on, like, the grand scale of things. And then there’s smaller actions that community members can take on their own. Or in, like, a smaller, like a more focused way.

OWEN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

SALO: So, I was wondering if--right now, if there’s anything from KIPL that kind of highlights the ways that it is engaging with community members, and getting them involved in climate change?

OWEN: Well, we usually do that through churches, right? So--not churches. Through religious organizations, right. So, we engage directly with religious organizations. And a lot of them come to us. And they will say, you know, we’re interested in having a--we have a green team. 00:16:00Or, we don’t have a green team, but we’re interested in exploring, you know, what we can do to make an impact on the environment. And so, you know, traditionally, one of the things that we’ve done is help people reduce the carbon footprint of their buildings. Right? But the way that religion is going in this day and age, a lot of churches are so small they don’t even need a building. --(chuckles)-- And so, then the question becomes how do you engage those communities without a building? Or without enough money to invest for long-term staying in the building? Right? Because that’s just the reality for many religious organizations these days. And so, that is where the engaging the community and advocacy comes in. Educating them about the kinds of things that they can be on the lookout in terms of [?? WORDS UNCLEAR] 00:17:00energy and regulatory policy with respect to the electric and gas sector. Not to mention transportation and the other big contributors to global warming. But then, I think, you know, one of the things that we do is--as a pastor, I’ve spent a lot of time learning how to be a pretty decent public speaker, I think I would say. And so, people will say-- we have a speakers’ bureau of which I am one person in that speakers’ bureau that can come to a religious organization and do a presentation, either that we’ve already done before that people are interested in, or that I work with the community to figure out what they would like to hear about. For instance, recently I did an adult education workshop on food. And being a vegetarian or a vegan 00:18:00and how that is--what they say is one of the biggest single things--the single biggest thing that a person can do to reduce their own carbon footprint. There are tons of things that we can do as individuals. But the biggest thing is to eat less meat. Because meat is way further up the supply chain. Or further up the production--takes a lot more inputs, in terms of water and food, for the animals to produce it. And so, these folks were interested in eating, and how that--you know, they might make choices week by week, day by day that lead to--even if they don’t go vegan, at least they’re conscious of the ways that choosing meat at every meal impacts the planet.

SALO: Right, so, kind of helping people make informed choices. You give them the resources that they would need to fully understand the conducts for climate change 00:19:00and how that affects them.

OWEN: Absolutely.

SALO: And conversely how they can affect it.

OWEN: You said it better than I.

SALO: --(laughs)-- Just summarizing what you already said.

OWEN: Right.

SALO: So, it sounds like, too, the communities that you’re primarily engaged with are ones that are already pretty open to making changes in their lives. Is that accurate? Or is it--

OWEN: --I’d say that’s true, simply because one of our struggles is funding. And we--because of that, I am a part-time person. And so, it’s pretty much--I mean, the good news is that there are a fair number of people that come to me. And so, I don’t have to, like, beat the bushes for people to work with. But the bad news is that because of funding struggles, I am only funded part-time. And that is not by choice. If I had 00:20:00my brothers (??) this would be a full-time job. And we would have a staff of ten. Because there’s plenty of work to be done. There’s plenty of people to be, to be touched by the possibility of this work. But I don’t have the bandwidth to do it. So, I deal with people who come to me. And they are, yes, the people that would be more naturally already predisposed to be interested.

SALO: That makes sense. I saw too on the website that there’s the sections for donations and then the staff listing that was up there. Which I wouldn’t--I guess I wouldn’t consider small. But it’s not massive. So, I was curious about the funding strategies. I think you’ve answered most of those. But I was also curious if you are able to apply for any state grants or federal grants if that supports you in any way. Or if you’re mostly on your own.

OWEN: We have been largely funded by individuals. And by 00:21:00a few--a very few individuals and a very few religious organizations that have funding. So, you know, could we apply for state and federal grants? The answer is, perhaps. There are a couple things to consider, though. We, though we are not sectarian, we are religious. And so, there are some federal grants and state grants that we might not be eligible for because we are of a religious bent. Even though we’re not sectarian. So, that’s one issue for us going after those grants. The other thing, and especially--this is especially true in the federal area--yes, the IRA has a lot of money coming down to people that--but federal grants 00:22:00most of the time are massive. Right? --(chuckles)-- And they take a whole lot of bandwidth to apply for them. And if you are basically a one-person part-time shop, to--your bang for your buck in applying for a federal grant--you know, federal grants want to know how you’re going to implement. They want a plan. And you know, if you say, well, please give me three million dollars and I’ll find somebody to spend it for you. --(laughs)-- Because it won’t be me! You know? Now, I can tell you that there--we do have a, partnership with the Louisville Climate Action. Because they are--you’ve probably talked to them as well. I hope so, anyway, because they--they are doing some good work. But 00:23:00what we have done is we have brought them--because they have an engineer on staff and because that person is much more qualified to do energy audits for energy efficiency than I am, right. We spent some of our money from our religious organization funder to pick some nonprofits that do social justice-type work in the community. Right? Because we knew our funder would be interested in that type of work, right. So, if you’re doing hunger or homelessness--Neighborhood House was one of the people that we--so, we took nonprofit. And we offered to them a free energy audit. A free--and also a free lighting change. Right? 00:24:00To change all of their lighting to LEDs if they hadn’t done that. And the reason we did that was because our experience is that small and medium-sized enterprises and small and medium-sized nonprofits and churches, religious organizations as well, they’re not like Toyota, that has a whole sustainability team, right. And so, if you come to a small or medium-sized church and you say to the pastor, how about, how about the environment? The pastor would say, you know, I would really like to spend time with the environment, but I have this and this and this and this and this to do. And maybe my green team can get together. And maybe I can--if I’m lucky, I can have a green team that understands how to change out the lights and all of that. What we wanted to experiment with was, what would it take, what would it take to get people to undertake this work, right? If they don’t have the bandwidth. 00:25:00And so, we said, “Let us be your sustainability. Let us do the energy audit. Let us recommend something that you can undertake. And then let us help you fund it.” Right? Well guess what, if you do that, people--it’s a no-brainer. People will do it. Because it reduces their electric bill. And so, the--the sticking point, we think, is their own budget for this kind of work, right. They don’t have the upfront capital because they’re a small to medium-sized organization. Plus, the bandwidth of a sustainability team to get it done. Right? And so, we--probably the most exciting thing we’ve done since I’ve been here is do a pilot project where we were able to, you know, take--I think it was forty-four tons out of the air with eight nonprofits by doing lighting retrofits. You know? You have to start somewhere, right? But what we found was 00:26:00if you invite people into the work, and give them both support for building their knowledge base and financial support, they’re on board. So, then you’re talking about IRA money and stuff like that. But it’s hard for us to be the lead organization to make that happen with no more bandwidth than we have. Right? And so, if the city wanted to, you know, go after some IRA money and then make, you know--give us some funds to help recruit people to this kind of work, we’d be happy to do that. You know, Alcan and KIPL together, KIPL would, would. But it’s which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Does the money come first or does the bandwidth come first? Well, actually, the money has to come first. 00:27:00But how do you then prove yourself as a worthy recipient for so much money if you have to build out the infrastructure? So, it’s a difficult conundrum on how to get bigger in a way that funders are excited about.

SALO: So, it sounds like, then, that there’s kind of two sides of things. Because earlier on you said that you were being reached out to by some community organizations and that you would go to them, and on this other side that you just described, you’re reaching out to them and offering services. So.

OWEN: Yes, exactly. What I would say is there are--the religious organizations that reach out to us are the ones that probably already have a green team. And already are interested in, you know, putting their--all of their money 00:28:00toward their mission and not giving it to Eltony KU (??). Right? And so, you do--they’re like, yeah, reduce our energy bills so we have more money for our mission. Right? So, these are some religious organizations, right? What I’m talking about, the folks we’re reaching out to are people that have a religious bent to their work, right? Or a social justice bent to their work. They might have been started--they might be a neighborhood--like a--I can’t think of the--Cabbage Patch and Neighborhood House are these in Louisville. They’re--they were originally started by--in a, in a Christian context. And then they reach out to the neighborhood and provide services, especially for the very low-income folks in the neighborhood. But for everybody in the neighborhood, right? Services and--you know, after-school stuff. 00:29:00And training for young people. And all that sort of thing. Recreation, all that. So, what we did was we thought where would our religiously based funder want us to reach out to? And it was people that were helping people. Right? Whether it’s, you know, St. John’s Men’s Homeless Ministry, or whether it was Neighborhood House, or Cabbage Patch, or--so, in that case, because we had money to spend and because we needed to go ahead and spend it down, we did this experiment of seeing--because large churches might reach out to you. Right? Because they’ve got the funds to do this. But the small and struggling ones aren’t going to. And the nonprofits that were doing this kind of work just don’t have the--they don’t have a green team, right? And so, we thought that our funder would be pleased 00:30:00by us trying this experiment. And so--yes. Both ends. You know, larger religious organizations come to us and say, help us, we’re interested in this. But then we also have done our share of reaching out to people that we would like to see their mission strengthened by having them spend less money on energy and more money on their mission. So, that’s been very exciting. And I think very fundable as well. And it’s a partnership where, you know, I could bring the clients and also the funding from funders that want to fund religiously-based organizations. And then Alcan could bring the more secular clients and the ones that, you know--and get the funding for people who really don’t want to fund religious projects, 00:31:00projects. Right? This is not really a religious project. It just happens to be--it’s--our stakeholders are religious organizations.

SALO: That led me to my next question, too. Which was--I can kind of glean this from what you’ve said already, but how does the interfaith kind of fundamental structure of KIPL play into the work that you do? Or how does it benefit your outreach attempts?

OWEN: Hm, it, well, it means that we can, we can help any, any religious organization that comes to us, right? I would argue that if we decided that we were going to affiliate with Kentucky Council of Churches, for example, 00:32:00which we thought of doing for some time (??). And we, you know, focused on Christians in Kentucky. We might have more obvious pathway. Right? It’s hard to be everything to be everybody. --(chuckles)-- Right? And so, interfaith is great. Again, as long as you have the bandwidth to make inroads into all those different places. Right? So, sometimes for me, as a part-time person, I think, wow, if I could just focus here. Right? I’m ordained Presbyterian, so, I thought, you know, wow, if I could just spend time trying to get all the Presbyterian churches on board, then I could--that might give me more of a toehold. But 00:33:00what I do now is more reactive, right? It means that I can have an Adath Jeshurun reach out to me--the synagogue--one of the synagogues here in town--and say, we’d like to be a partner. And say, oh, here’s our partnership. And, and you come and speak. Like, so, it--in terms of, terms of people reaching out to us, it gives us more possibilities of people that can contact us and feel comfortable that we want to support them, right? But in terms of our outreach to others, as such a small organization, it’s difficult. To figure out how to best, you know--

SALO: --Right--

OWEN: --do the outreach.

SALO: And that would go back, then, to what you talked about the funding. That you’re only part-time. And so, if you were full-time, there might be an easier way to balance the outreach with responding to--

OWEN: --Right--

SALO: --who comes in to you.

OWEN: Right. Right. 00:34:00You wouldn’t just be responding. You would also be doing more like we did this past summer with, with some funding that was left over from--you know, it needed to spent down. It was left over from the pandemic era. Where we had proposed a project that wasn’t viable during the pandemic because it had to do with gathering people. Right? So, then we have money that needs to be spent and all of a sudden you have to pivot and say, what can we do with this that is effective, that this funder will appreciate? And so, that’s kind of how we came up with doing this experiment. You know, how can we, how can we get people from talking about how they would like to be stewards of the environment to actually do a concrete project that reduces their emissions? And their carbon footprint.

SALO: I’ve heard from a lot of people that they noticed during the pandemic the changes in the climate, 00:35:00from the reduced cars on the road--you know, just fewer people being out. And saw that as a positive thing. Did you see any change in community involvement or outreach to you after the pandemic, or did it more or less stay the same as before?

OWEN: We kind of made a change in the executive directors. Right kind of in the summer of 2021. So, it’s hard for me to say. I know that one of the things that caused the previous executive director to search elsewhere for work had to do with the struggle of trying to be relevant if you had relied on, you know, educational events and gathering like-minded people. And then to suddenly have to figure out what you were about if that couldn’t happen was challenging for her. So, I don’t know 00:36:00that the pandemic itself--you know, I think that for people who were already thinking about the climate--you know, we don’t know exactly where COVID-19 came from. But we know that, you know, climate change is going to increase the possibility of pandemics like that. Because humans will be coming into contact with animals. Because animals will be migrating. Because people will be migrating. Because--for all kinds of reasons. Because, you know, dengue fever and all of that will be coming more--you know, lots of, lots of different tropical diseases that have been traditionally in those areas of the world may come north. So, for all kinds of reasons, 00:37:00the climate is going to perhaps expose us to more pandemic-like experiences. And I think in that way, the pandemic kind of--for those of us that think about the planet, it kind of was like, okay, here we go. You know, we’re here.

SALO: Right. And especially, too, I imagine, with as far as--I’m not from Kentucky, but as far as I understand, the last couple of years in Kentucky have been unusual as far as tornado season goes and the way that the general weather patterns are going. Obviously, we’ve had flooding throughout the state and the tornadoes throughout the state that I imagine must also impact people’s awareness of climate change, and also their willingness or readiness to make that kind of change. But I don’t know if you’ve, if you’ve noticed any trends like that more recently.

OWEN: Well, I think, I think it does, perhaps, you know, I always say, 00:38:00you know, those ‘rare’ December tornadoes because --(laughs)-- they’re getting less and less rare. And if you have kind of a hundred-year flood event once every five years, then it’s no longer a hundred-year flood event. --(laughs)-- And I’m laughing, but it’s not funny. Because people in our state have been victims of these hundred-year events. And I don’t think you have to work too hard to convince somebody in the floods in Eastern Kentucky last fall that we’ve got a problem. So, in that--but I think there’s a lot more education that needs to be done to connect the dots. You know, the, the, even the governor--who I very much support. 00:39:00But I was disappointed to hear the governor say, “We’re not really sure of why we had these floods.” You know? Now, part of that is that he’s, he has to run for office again. And he doesn’t want to get out on a limb. And he’s a Democratic governor in a seventy-thirty, you know, red state tilt(??). So, I get it, right? It’s still disappointing, though. We need his help, I think, connecting the dots. --(chuckles)-- And saying, actually, no, we, we really do know why these events are being more and more severe. It’s exactly what the science predicted. It’s--you know, can we make--can we draw a direct line? No. But can we say that generally this tendency in our state and other states is what climate change looks like? Yes, I think we can. So, I was a bit disappointed by that, that display by him. But generally, you know, 00:40:00Kentucky for the first time, I think, in the--what are the--is it the Pew climate research stuff? I’m trying to think of--we have a (pause) sixty-two percent? I mean, you might know this, but they, they did interviews. And I think a majority of Kentuckians believe that climate change is real and that it’s a problem. And I think that certainly the events, you know, get people’s attention.

SALO: Yeah.

OWEN: My preference would be--

SX: It’s sixteen hours.

OWEN: --that we would decide to take action without having to have our teeth bashed in. And as has happened in our state, it has been people who were already struggling.

SALO: Right. And that does--it strengthens your earlier point, too, about looking at the connection 00:41:00between what the community members can do, what has to happen at the policy level, and what people can do as the mediators between those two. I’m going to pause for a quick second--did you have to go right at 4:00?

OWEN: No.

SALO: Alright. Because when you were talking about the shifts from the pandemic or changes that happened later, especially with not being able to gather people together, I was reminded of the newsletter that KIPL puts out. Has that been an effective way to reach out to community members? Especially when gathering isn’t possible. Or when, you know, things are busy.

OWEN: I mean, it depends on which demographic you’re talking about. Right? We also have a social media person, which--we got a grant to get a social media person. And I think that there is a certain demographic younger than me for whom, you know, even a newsletter is 00:42:00too [?? WORDS UNCLEAR] Takes too much time. Too much energy, right? So, we were trying to figure out how we could be active on social media. With me being on leave, we haven’t done a lot of newsletter stuff recently. I think--I did notice that when I started doing advocacy stuff in my newsletter--specifically advocacy directed at democratizing our investor on utility here, people started giving money and signing up for our newsletter. You know, it wasn’t, like, you know, hundreds of people. But people seemed to appreciate that.

SALO: Right, and it’s--

OWEN: --Because,well, 00:43:00because I think that people understand that our investor-owned utility is not helping us.

SALO: Right, they’re having the one company--is it-- the issue of the (??)-- it’s usually that there was one company that doesn’t have the competition to drive change towards--

OWEN: It’s also that--well, I mean, I could talk about this for, like, six months. But if I can try to put it in a nutshell. Supposedly the reason that companies have a monopoly is that energy production is a natural monopoly. Right? It’s a network industry. And so, you don’t want, like, six companies competing to put up transmission lines and distribution lines and all of that. Well, recently, in the Nineties, in this country, I think ten or twelve states have decided that at least 00:44:00the generation of electricity can be competitive. Right? And these states were largely states that did not have cheap energy. Right? Now, Kentucky has always said, we have really cheap energy because we’re the closest to the coal. Right? And so, we don’t have to add on a lot of transportation costs per kilowatt-hour for the coal that you burn to get the electricity, right? But that is changing drastically in Kentucky. Because coal is no longer economic. -- (laughs) -- Right? It no longer is the cheapest energy. Natural gas is. And so, a lot of states have competitive generation of electricity. And so, the problem is, is that we have forgotten that the companies that have these monopolies are public utilities 00:45:00and thus they owe something to the public. And public--the public should be having super input into their decisions about where they spend their money. Now, there are some people, for example, on the Metro Council that said, “We can’t pass a resolution saying we want LG&E not to build gas-fired power plants. Why would we intervene in a private sector business?” And the answer to that question is, you would intervene because they enjoy a monopoly statutorily. --(chuckles)-- Right? By statute here in Kentucky. And in--they have agreed to be regulated, right? To make sure that it’s not just their economic interests that drive their investments, but it’s also the needs of the people of Kentucky. Right? And so, KIPL is part of 00:46:00Kentuckians for Energy Democracy--which I’m assuming you all know about. But we are part of that coalition who are trying to--and we are trying to make a difference at the public service commission level. Now, we--I’m beginning to think that, that we’d be better off really trying to go to both Democratic and Republican legislators. Right? And say to them, let’s talk about these skyrocketing electric rates of all your constituents who I’m sure are--who are calling you and making a lot of noise about how they can’t handle these skyrocketing rates. Right? And the reasons the rates are skyrocketing--you know, probably, is because natural gas prices are skyrocketing. And a lot of our base that’s not coal is natural gas. So, you know, 00:47:00yes, there’s one company. But it’s also because--the problem with the one company is partly because we don’t use the regulator to do what we said it was going to do, which was to look out for the consumer. Right? The marginal cost of energy from renewable energy is zero. So, once you put in the capital, the, your cost for every additional kilowatt-hour is zero. So, coal and gas cannot compete with a zero marginal cost. Right? And so, so, even if the solar and storage cost more to begin with, how much time is it going to take to make that up. And then for the consumer, what is better is the renewables. Right? So, you don’t start there with your Republican legislators 00:48:00here in Kentucky, I don’t think. But I do think you can start with, how many calls have you gotten from constituents complaining about high energy prices? Right? And then from there, maybe, slowly but surely, we can whittle it down and make people see.

SALO: So, then it’s the same goal regardless of who you’re talking to, but you take different steps to--

OWEN: --Yeah. Right. We’re not going to--Kentuckians for Energy Democracy--neither KIPL nor Kentuckians for Energy Democracy are going to get one, you know, step forward going to a Republication legislature--legislator and beginning with, don’t you want to help with our climate agenda? The answer to that is, hell no! I want to, I want us to be using coal to generate our energy because that’s--that’ll bring jobs to Kentucky! 00:49:00And then what I say is--well, first of all, let’s not start there. But then the response to that is, I understand that you want to use coal. Unfortunately, coal is no longer economically competitive. It’s one of the reasons--the fact that we’re still using it is one of the reasons that our energy is no longer the cheapest in the nation.

SALO: Right, because the market has changed. The supplies have changed.

OWEN: The market has changed. We can’t go back to 1945. As much as we enjoyed some steady middle-class jobs--if you want to call a coal mining job that, right? --(chuckles)-- As much as we enjoyed, you know, coal employment in Pike County, we can’t go back there.

SALO: Earlier on in the interview, you had mentioned that there are job creation options 00:50:00within the climate change industry. Do you see those as at all being able to--I don’t know if ‘offset’ is the right word, but balance out any job changes because of the shutdown of coal or the reduced reliance in natural gas?

OWEN: Absolutely, as long as training is provided. I mean, you know, the question is are you, the question is, are you going to be deliberate about helping the folks that are hurt by the transition away from coal? Right? And what we have discovered in a coalition that we’re a part of with Taproot, which is--they have been doing, kind of a dialogue with people in Appalachia. You know, people in Kentucky, people in Pennsylvania, people all up and down--and they have been trying to figure out what the similarities are between--among regions 00:51:00that are having--are going to have to bear the brunt of joblessness as that relates to the energy transition. Right? And so, there’s a lot--if we want a just transition, we will put some of our oil and gas subsidies--we’ll take them out of subsidizing oil and gas and we will put them into job training programs for people in the Gulf Coast that, you know, work in the refineries. And we will put it into job training programs for people in Appalachia that no longer have a job in the coal mine. Right? Because one of the things that you could do with the strip mine is you could put a solar field on it that gets sent up to PJM--you know, the PJM RTO. Regional Transmission Organization. And that’s 00:52:00why so [?? WORDS UNCLEAR] Kentucky because they are wanting renewable power. And you might be able to put those on some strip mine sites, for example. But we have to be deliberate about not leaving people behind, but instead giving them the means and the training that they need to, to learn how to--jobs in renewable energy. I mean, I think that’s part of what a just transition looks like, is job training for people who have been left behind.

SALO: It sounds like that, too, would then connect to what you were saying earlier about the importance of community in bringing people together is if you’re going to be making climate change--changes for climate change, keeping that focus on people’s everyday lives and their livelihoods and their connection as a community is important. Rather than just making changes 00:53:00without thinking about what that effect would have on the community.

OWEN: Right. Right. And I mean, you know, obviously, the thing that’s so awful about climate change is that the people that are most vulnerable to the changes it’s going to bring about are the ones that don’t have the finances to be--to make their housing, their transportation, and their employment--they don’t have the flexibility to change those [?? WORDS UNCLEAR] And that’s why climate change is so awful. With people that put the--the people that have the smallest carbon footprints are the ones that are most affected by the--by the ravages of climate change. And that’s, that’s, yeah, that’s awful.

SALO: Yeah, which is where I think your organization and the ones that you’re partnering with are so important. 00:54:00Because they help people who don’t otherwise have the means of either doing the lobbying or finding out the information that they need. They can get that through you. Through the support of your partners as well. Which is wonderful.

OWEN: Yeah. It’s good. It’s good. I mean, the work, I think, is very important. But I am still struggling to figure out how to fund it.

SALO: Which reminds me of something else I was going to ask, too. Are there moments where you find it difficult to stay motivated? Like, in this--when kind of the whole situation is sad? Or does the idea of the better future keep you motivated most times?

OWEN: Well, I have two daughters. One of them is fourteen. And one of them is eleven. And, though it’s amazing to me that people aren’t in the streets every day making sure that 00:55:00people pay attention to this issue, when I think about what I could do that would be more meaningful in terms of helping them have a future that is characterized by abundant life and meaning, I don’t know what else I would rather do.

SALO: That’s a wonderful way to summarize it. Was there anything else that you wanted to add, either describing the work that you do or the changes that you want to see?

OWEN: I think this is somewhat of a theological point. But it’s one that I want to make. The other thing when you say, “Do you get discouraged?” Yes, of course. Especially in this state, where 00:56:00we’re hardly on the leading edge of this issue. To say it politely. But hope is a muscle. And we can choose (pause) to give up. I’m not--I wouldn’t dare do that. Partly because of my daughters. And partly because of how much I have been awed by the beauty and majesty of the creation. This is--you know, I think there was one climate activist that said, you know, “They want me to sell my soul to the company 00:57:00store.” Or something like that. They want to tell me how we have time. We have enough time. And all I can do is show them my left thumb (??) . So, you know, love and hope are closely connected. And if you love the creation, then your imperative becomes the hope that you can make a difference. There’s really no other choice.

SALO: That’s very beautifully put. So, I think I’m going to leave that point to speak for itself, if that’s all right with you. --(chuckles)-- So, unless there’s anything else you want to add after that, I think we can go ahead and wrap up?

OWEN: That’s fine. I appreciate your time and your interest in the topic. 00:58:00And what you’re trying to do.

SALO: I appreciate you making the time to talk to us as well. Even though I know things have been very busy for you.

OWEN: They’ve been--it’s been a tough time.

SALO: I’m going to re-record my intro spiel. Because I think it got cut off.

OWEN: Okay.

SALO: You don’t have to stay for that if you don’t want to. Otherwise, that’s the only thing I’ve got to add before I shut the recording off. And then we can edit it and move it to the front. --(chuckles)-- Just pretend that didn’t happen.

OWEN: Well, Godspeed with your work. And I hope our paths cross again at some point. But keep on keeping on.

SALO: Thank you. And I just realized, too, that I think if you leave, I’ll get kicked out. So, maybe I do have to record it before you leave.

OWEN: Go right ahead. I’ll--

SALO: --(laughs)--

[End of recording]