Interview with Paul Nirens, July 24, 2023

FERNHEIMER: Hit record. Testing, testing, one, two, three. Yes. Okay, great. Good afternoon. We had hoped that this would be morning

NIRENS: Yes, not morning.

FERNHEIMER: Thank you to all kinds of excitement on the train. My name is Janice Fernheimer. I'm Professor of Writing, Rhetoric & Digital Studies, the Zantker Professor of Jewish Studies, and the James B. Beam Institute for Kentucky Spirits Faculty Fellow. Today is July 24, 2023, and it is my great honor and pleasure to interview Paul Nirens here at the Efendi Hotel in Akko for the Food & Foodways in Israel Palestine Project, oral history project, which will be housed at the Louis B. Nunn Center for Oral History in Lexington, Kentucky. To get us started, Paul, please state your name and for the official record.

NIRENS: My name is Paul Nirens.

FERNHEIMER: Thank you for correcting me.

NIRENS: Ne-rens is just as good, but it's actually 00:01:00Ni-rens with a hard I, yeah. And what else do you need? I live in Israel.

FERNHEIMER: Tell me a little bit about your family origins, where your parents are from.

NIRENS: My family origins, my--actually quite interesting. My father was born in France. We have a Polish Jewish family. My grandfather was a man of great vision that left Poland because he thought that Eastern Europe wasn't for the Jews. Then he went to enlightened France, and then before the war, before the war, he realized that enlightened France was not so enlightened. So he picked up his whole family and moved to Australia, which was as far away from Europe as he could get. That's my father's side of the family. My mother's side of the family is almost the exact opposite. We recently discovered--we always thought they were free men that came out to Australia, but we seem to have been misled. It appears that my mother's--my mother's paternal side of the family came out as convicts 00:02:00from England in the 1830s.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

NIRENS: And so--yeah, so that's a pretty mixed bag. (both laugh) That's my family. I, I , I come from a family of food. That's to say that we owned a restaurant in Melbourne. My father was a chef and also a--what I describe as a food explorer. I hate the word foodie so I called--

FERNHEIMER: --tell me why--

NIRENS: --'cause it's so boring, it has no meaning. It's, it's passe. I like to call myself a food explorer or a food adventurer. Food adventurer is probably even better, and I certainly got that from my father.

FERNHEIMER: I like that.

NIRENS: Yeah, a lotta people, lot of people, have, have liked that. It's a bit more wordy than foodie, but it's--to me, foodie is a, is a, is a nothing term. It's just a, a blank 00:03:00sort of bland term. But anyway, so that was--so I became a chef. I was working as a chef now over 20 years ago, thereabouts, maybe 25 years ago, and gave that up because I had four young children and wanted to work when everyone else was working. I wasn't really hungry enough for the profession. Then I worked for a number of years, always more or less in and out of food, but not necessarily let's say, it was more in, you know, wholesale or whatever, selling spices or things like that. Then I had this idea to start the business, and since then I've become the--I think, I try to--I remain modest, but I think that I'm regarded as the expert in Israel for Galilean cuisine. and it's not--Galilean cuisine including the local Arabic cuisine, but not just.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, so wow. You gave me a great nutshell. 00:04:00(both laughs)

NIRENS: Well, you asked for it.

FERNHEIMER: No, I did and I'm grateful for it. Can we go back a little bit before we go forward?

NIRENS: Yeah, you're the boss.

FERNHEIMER: Tell me about the kind of restaurant that your dad owned, yeah, in Melbourne.

NIRENS: We owned a, we owned a steak, we owned a steak restaurant, quite a good one. It wasn't--it was before the days of Wagyu beef. It was all good Australian, you know, Australian beef. It was essentially barbecue. It was called the Barbecue Inn and it was essentially a barbecue and steak restaurant. We did have a--at the time it was Yugoslavian. It was before the, the Yugoslavia fell apart. We had a Yugoslavian pastry chef and cold, and cold portion chef. She actually taught us a lot of the Central European dishes Cevacippi which is like sort of--

FERNHEIMER: --how do you spell that?--

NIRENS: --C-E-V-A-C-I-P-P-I, I think. Kabob, because Cevacippi and kabob, between the 00:05:00C's and the P's and the B's, they all get mixed up together, which is a traditional Central European Balkan--

FERNHEIMER: --Balkan?--

NIRENS: --Balkan sort of kabob full of garlic. You know? She used to make her own, her own sausages, and you know, so we learned a lot of that there. And so I was always exposed to, to, to interesting food, whether it was professionally from my father's restaurant or just my father would, you know, would hang--this was in the seventies, you know, would hang a duck up to dry it out to make Peking duck, you know, or would make wontons from scratch. It was always that, that thing of, of being inquisitive about food and being exposed to different types of food and different techniques.

FERNHEIMER: And so did you grow up working in your dad's restaurant at all?

NIRENS: I worked as--not as a chef. I didn't learn to cook in my father's, I was too young. I was studying, I was getting my undergrad degree, 00:06:00and so I didn't work--but I did work two nights a week so that my father didn't have to work. I was like the maître-d' for two nights a week, just to give my dad a couple nights off. But yeah, so I can see my whole life was--is--has always been pretty close to food.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. Tell me how did you make your way here? Here being Israel from Australia.

NIRENS: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: I understand you immigrated or made Aliyah when you were 25?

NIRENS: That's right, in 1984. To put it literally and a bit jokingly, I actually, I actually walked it, is to say--(laughs)--

FERNHEIMER: --really?--

NIRENS: --yeah, well I left Australia--I went from Melbourne to Northern Australia by bus and then flew to Bali, and then from Bali I essentially went across, cross land as far as India. I actually wanted to go into Pakistan and Afghanistan 00:07:00and it was just too dangerous at the time. In 1984, it wasn't a really safe place to go into Afghanistan, so I flew into Italy. I essentially came Aliyah overland, but that's not--wasn't what you meant for your question. The question, in true answer to your question.

FERNHEIMER: No, but it's a really interesting set of context, so I appreciate you--

NIRENS: --it is a context because it just goes to that whole thing of experience and experiencing culture and food, which goes together. I--even in my, in my, in my profession, food and culture can't be separate. Aren't separated and can't be separated. At least I don't try to separate them. But in reality, I'd say I was in a Jewish youth movement. I came in a gap year program in 1978 when I finished--the year after I finished high school. I came back a second time, third time I stayed. Then I met the woman who was to become my wife. She was from Boston originally, and she was living in Israel. The rest is history. Four kids and, you know, and that's it.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, okay, well I, I feel like this is gonna be kind of chip-choppy because we're going to try to get through a lot.

NIRENS: That's the way I am. You know. You have to stop me when you want to stop me 'cause I do tend to go on a bit.

FERNHEIMER: So--okay, so you made--what--what--you said you came for a gap year in 1978 and then you were involved in a Jewish youth group.

NIRENS: That's right.

FERNHEIMER: What was the name of the youth group?

NIRENS: It was first Habonim. Then after that I actually met Ilya with Hashomer Hatzair, which are more, which are more left-wing.

FERNHEIMER: Hashomer Hatzair?

NIRENS: Hatzair, yeah, the Young Guard. Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Did you grow up in a house where people were connected to Israel? They'd talk about things in terms of Zionism? These are two pretty Zionist youth groups.

NIRENS: I went to a Jew--yeah, not overtly. As I say, that, that--I grew up in a--I went to a Jewish school. I went to Mount Scopus College, which is the largest Jewish school in the diaspora.

FERNHEIMER: Can you say it again?

NIRENS: Mount Scopus 00:09:00College, Mount Scopus Memorial College, if you want to be exact.

FERNHEIMER: And this is in Australia?

NIRENS: Yeah, in Melbourne, Australia. It's the largest Jewish day school in the, in the diaspora.

FERNHEIMER: Wow, and it's named after Mount Scopus here?

NIRENS: I guess so, yeah. I don't know if it's named after or they're all like--they were both started up around the same time. I don't really know the history, but yeah, I guess it was. The Melbourne Jewish community in itself was an amazing Jewish--also today it's an amazing Jewish community. I grew up in Melbourne, again as an aside, there were still Landsmanshaftn in Melbourne in the seventies. And that's--they were nowhere else in the world, but they were still--the Polish micro-communities stayed together as micro-communities and gathered together in Landsmanshaftn. I remember my grandfather going to a big part of the, of the Warsaw Landsmanshaftn.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

NIRENS: Yeah, and that has continued, not Landsmanshaftn but certainly that community, that community 00:10:00feeling -----------(??)----------. So I came from a strong Jewish identity. My parents weren't amazing Zionists. They didn't--we didn't have Israeli flags in the dining room. But I had a strong Jewish identity and, I don't know, I fell into a Jewish youth movement because my parents thought it would be nice to meet as many Jewish kids and for the community to stick together. I don't think it was out of any like, you know, super-Zionist ideology. It's, it's what it is.

FERNHEIMER: And that's how you got here.

NIRENS: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: What motivated you to stay after trip three? Did you meet your wife first and then you decided to stay?

NIRENS: I met my wife first. I met Ilya. Well, no. Truthfully, I met Ilya with going out with a group of people from Hashomer Hatzair, so I had this--

FERNHEIMER: --and this was in 1978--

NIRENS: --1984.

FERNHEIMER: 1994, sorry.

NIRENS: 1984, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: '84?

NIRENS: Yeah, '84, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: So you came in right as food was coming up.

NIRENS: Before, before. When I first met Ilya our food was still--Israel was a third-world country. It was a third-world country maybe starting off as a developing country. It was on that borderline, but it was, you know, it was pretty, it, it was pretty developing or undeveloped, and certainly make Aliayah to a kibbutz and its dining room food every day. What made me--I just--I had the Zionist fervor at that point. I thought this was where--it just felt right to me. To put it more accurately in many ways, it just felt right. And there have been times when I've wanted to leave and there have been times where I've been very, very proud, let's say, that I'm staying here. Those times in some ways didn't coincide with my wife's feelings. That's to say that there were times when maybe my wife wanted to leave but I was, I was gung-ho to stay, and again, she's from Boston, I'm from Melbourne, so where are we gonna go? You know. I didn't wanna go to Boston and 00:12:00she didn't wanna go to Melbourne. So it doesn't mean necessarily that we've stayed out of default, but I think there was an element to it. But there was I think an element of I've got four children, and when they were young we were living on kibbutz and we still--

FERNHEIMER: --what kibbutz were you--

NIRENS: --Tuval.

FERNHEIMER: Which is in the?

NIRENS: In the--in Western Galilee, in the mountains of Western Galilee, where we still today, we're not members of the kibbutz. We live in the community neighborhood, but I think when our kids, it was more in the community neighborhood than--we had left the kibbutz already, but we were staying on Tuval. In terms of lifestyle choices with children, I honestly don't think there's anywhere in the world that I know of which is better to bring up children. And I think by the time we had kids and we had our--we've got four kids and they were young, we had four kids under ten years old, and I think-- 00:13:00I think it was obvious to us that what we were getting in terms of a family, both our children as children, but us as a family on Tuval, living in Israel in a, in a community, we couldn't get anywhere in the world. Not in Melbourne, not in Boston, and not, not anywhere else.

FERNHEIMER: When was your first born, just so that I can--

NIRENS: --Gael was born in 1991, Suvan 1992, and then the twins were born in 1995 or '96, somewhere in there. They're 25 years old, so what does that make it? 1998 maybe they were born--

FERNHEIMER: --math, I don't do fast. (laughs)

NIRENS: Yeah, I do math in my head pretty well, but I think they were--I don't just--my long-term memory is--I think 1998 the twins were born. Gael was about seven, so between 1991 and seven is 1998, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. So these are some pretty big moments in history, if we're talking about Scuds in '91, '92--

NIRENS: --Gael was born, Gael was born--

FERNHEIMER: --and then Oslo and--

NIRENS: Gael was born on the 15th of January, 1991. He's first, my--Susan, first, first, first--my firstborn child, Gael, Susan had a very long labor. She had a 36-hour labor. She was in hospital for 24 hours. They pushed her out of hospital because they had to get prepared for incoming casualties, which didn't happen. And my son was two days old and he spend his fir--his second night of life in a gas-proof tent.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

NIRENS: Now I look back, I don't know how I did it, but at the time we just shrugged, shrugged, and said that's what it is.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, in 1992, right Oslo was getting ready to come about.

NIRENS: Mm-hmm, Oslo, yeah, yeah, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And in '98, what was happening in 1998?

NIRENS: Maybe other wars, I don't know. Yeah, we've lived through some interesting times.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, so okay, I feel like we could do a whole interview about that and about what it's like to live on kibbutz as a young family. 00:15:00But you, you talked about the fact that you kinda gave up professional cooking as a chef it sounds like roughly around the time your twins were born?

NIRENS: A bit later. Twins, I gave up--I don't remember the year, the twins are 25. Yeah, it must've been around when they were one or two years old, I guess.

FERNHEIMER: So where were you working as a chef and where did you do your training? Here?

NIRENS: Yeah, I did my training here in Israel. I was working as a chef in a vegetarian restaurant in, in, in the Galilee Mountains, a restaurant called Dalia's Restaurant in Amirim, which is a vegetarian moshav. Then I became the sous chef of, of the--what was in its day the Plaza Hotel in Tiberius, and that was where I finished my career. It's where I decided that it wasn't, it wasn't for me. It was a combination, I think, of on one hand not wanting 00:16:00to have to work when, you know, when, when everyone else wasn't working and therefore not seeing my children grow up. And then perhaps a realization that as a chef, maybe I would become a chef of a, of a, of a middling, a middling hotel in Tiberius, it wasn't professionally what I saw myself--I didn't see myself as becoming a really, really good chef. I was okay, but I never thought I was any better than okay. And I didn't want to--I don't like doing things okay. Okay is not what I do, so therefore I think that also motivated--yeah, it--

FERNHEIMER: --yeah, I mean, I can definitely see the motivation of wanting to spend time with your four kids and being able to be around them--

NIRENS: Yeah, it was a big motivation. It was the main motivation.

FERNHEIMER: And when, when you decided to leave chef--chefery, I don't know, there's another word for it.

NIRENS: The world of culinary arts.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, or as an active, you know, actively 00:17:00practicing them, what did you do next? Was it--

NIRENS: --professionally?--

FERNHEIMER: --immediately that you started with your company?

NIRENS: No, I started Galileat 10 years ago. I, I worked--I, I had--I started out doing--I worked for a short period, for about--it wasn't so short in the end. I worked for about a year in a kibbutz dining room, being the chef in the kibbutz dining room. I put that into my CV. It was all right, it paid the wages, but I, I didn't really enjoy it and I didn't really--a certain profession, I got nothing out of it. It was more I could've been, you know, I could have been a manicurist or whatever. In other words, in terms of the fact that I had these skills and I was using them to get, to get, to get money, but I had zero professional satisfaction in it. Then I went to work for a newspaper doing sales for advertising, and then I worked a job as a mapping manager for a spice company.

FERNHEIMER: When was that?

NIRENS: Finished it when I finished -----------(??)---------- so it was ten years or so, I must've finished in November of 2012, and I worked there for the ten years before that, or eight years, nine years before that. So from 2001 more or less--

FERNHEIMER: --right--

NIRENS: --two--2003 more or less through till November 2012.

FERNHEIMER: So right through the second Intifada.

NIRENS: Yeah, it would be about right in then, view it that way, but yeah, I guess. Then I gave up, I gave up, and I had this idea, but I didn't really know this wasn't going to go with us -----------(??), I had enough of it, you know, I'd gotten to the point in my life where I wanted to do something for myself. I had this idea in the back of my head and started it. And I always joke that I never--up until I started Galileat, I would always say I don't know what I want to do when I grow up. 00:19:00That's to say that there was no real job, even when I was working as a chef there was no wow, this is my profession. You know, I never suffered from work because I suffered from work, but, but it was nothing that really grabbed me. Then when I started this, this--my business and it became successful, I realized this is what I want--this is what I want do when I grow up, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: What, what gave you--like where did--what inspired you to start Galileat? Like--maybe first let's back up and tell me about Galileat and its mission. I've read the website, but maybe not everyone listening has.

NIRENS: I'll get to that. I'll give you--I'll back up first and then, then I'll tell you--

FERNHEIMER: --sure--

NIRENS: --and then I'll tell you how it started. How it started is disappointing, I think. Not disappointing for me, but it might be disappointing for you. It's much more prosaic than what you might think it is, but it wasn't nearly as romantic. But I'll--Galileat was started up 00:20:00ten years ago in March of 2013 essentially to promote culinary tourism in the Galilee. That's the, that's the headline. The majority of the work, certainly when I started--we've since branched out a little bit--but certainly when I started, the vast majority, like 99 percent of the work, was based on home hospitality with my Arabic-speaking neighbors, and today that's what Galileat is known for. We do home hospitality programs, usually based around cooking workshops. I have hosts who are Druze, Muslims, Christians, and a group, a good group from two and fifty people will come in, come to the homes of one of my host families and will always hear about the host family, about their background, their culture, the town that we, that we are in. And then we'll--again, we'll either sit and have a lovely cooked meal--a home-cooked meal or 00:21:00we'll go into the kitchen and we'll cook the meal and then sit down and eat it. Essentially today--I branched out and today I would confidently say that Galileat is the biggest and most important business in the north that relates to all matters culinary. And we're, we're improving and growing, not just in terms of, let's say, I'm not talking about money, but we're growing in terms of who we know, contacts, you know, all the time. I've had three leads in the last three days of new, of new people who I want to get in contact with and see them. And there's a fourth person who I've known for a while who we haven't, we haven't developed, but we're going to develop. So we're always, we're always developing. I'm very, very strong in the belief that you, you can't rest on your laurels in any, any business, whether you're a shoemaker or, or a manicurist or 00:22:00someone who does with any, you know, with culinary tourism. You always have to be moving forward. But that's Galileat essentially. We're the experts in culinary tourism, culinary and cultural tourism in the north. How did I start? Like I say, I'm going to disappoint you. I participated in a cooking workshop in Umbria in Italy now fifteen years ago. My friends who were with me, said "Paul, you're a chef. You know how to talk. You can be can be nice occasionally. Why don't you--why don't you take people into your home and teach them how to cook?" I said then and I say now, fifteen years later, I'm not very interesting. The food that I, the food that I know how to cook, it's standard western food. I'm not a chef that was trained classically. No one's gonna come and learn how to make a bechamel sauce. But the concept of doing authentic Umbrian food in Umbria and transposing the, the con-- 00:23:00the, the context, the concept, to authentic Galilean food in the Galilee is a great idea. Here's the place I'm going to disappoint you. I started it because I thought it was a great idea for a business. In other words, I run, I run Galileat as a business. I'm unapologetic about that. It's not a not-for-profit. It's not an NGO, which means that--and that means that my standards are incredibly high and my hosts understand--and this is the, this is the thing that I think is one of the reasons why I've succeeded, because my hosts understand that I have standards and I demand those standards. And that's something that, that isn't common in Israel in general. It certainly wasn't common amongst the Arabic-speaking population of the Galilee who didn't know anything about, you know, professionalism. And I'm coming in and demanding professional standards and keeping it at a home hospitality authentic 00:24:00experience. And those two things don't always go together easily, and that's one of the things that, that, that I think I've been successful at.

FERNHEIMER: And do you speak Arabic? How do you communicate?

NIRENS: No, that's a sore point.

FERNHEIMER: Sorry.

NIRENS: Yeah, stepping on my, on my blisters. I've done two courses in Arabic, I can't--and I speak fluent Hebrew. I can't get my mouth around it. My understanding is not bad, it should be better. My speaking is poor and I feel bad about it. I'm not happy about it. I go into a home of my host whose mother tongue is Arabic, I should speak to them in their mother tongue and not force them to speak Hebrew, even if their Hebrew is good. It's still their second language. And I'm not proud of it. It's not something that, that I want, but the reality is I, I just haven't succeeded in learning Arabic. So no.

FERNHEIMER: When did you start learning?

NIRENS: Arabic? About five years ago. I haven't been--to be honest--

FERNHEIMER: --it's hard when you're an adult--

NIRENS: --it's hard when you're 60, when you're 58 years old and you've got a business and you've got family and you've got 00:25:00this and you've got everything. And you know what? Excuse the expression, it's a bullshit reason. You can scrub that out. It's, it's, it's rubbish. If I really, really, really was devoted enough, I'd do it. I'm not a fool, okay? I learned to speak Hebrew, which means I have the ability to learn a second language. But I don't speak good Arabic, and like I say, I can't say that I'm proud of it.

FERNHEIMER: Does it impact the way that you connect with your host families? How did you identify--tell me about that. I mean, from what I've read on your website, you have host families from all the different backgrounds here, Muslim, Christian, Druze, maybe Circassian? Not yet? Okay.

NIRENS: Not, not for--you can--not for quote, no one's hearing this yet, but I don't think their food's any good. (both laugh)

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

NIRENS: You're gonna call me racist now, but I just, no, to be honest, there's only two Circassian villages in Israel. I think the 00:26:00true--the, the true niche, for me at least, for my business, there would have to be a little bit more. But that's, I'm just--

FERNHEIMER: --so how did you go about, I guess, identifying who you wanted to cultivate as hosts? And, and tell me more about kind of the business? Who's your, who's your audience, you know, these groups of two to 50, and how do you reach them? What's your goal other than, I don't know, I'll leave it at that--

NIRENS: -----------(??)---------- the goal--I'll start at the end--the goal, really again, I'm gonna really disappoint you, to make money. I know that's a hor--it sounds very, very cold, and I'm not cold at all about what I do. I have a very strong belief. And again, I'm not a fool. I say to make money, but I don't make shoes. That's to say that, that it's a, you know, it's a social enterprise. I'm making money not just for myself, but I'm also supporting nine other families in the Galilee who are all pretty much working-class, you know, families and I'm very proud of that. So, so whilst it's a business, it is a social business 00:27:00and I'm very proud of the support that I have been allowed to give to the families that otherwise wouldn't be as well off, let's say. So that--that's one, that's one thing. How did I find--well, my first post was a woman called Pnina, a Druze woman, and when I first had the idea of starting my business, I asked a friend of mine, who I knew that she had contacts in the Arabic-speaking world, you know, Arab friends, and she introduced me to Pnina. I knew immediately that Pnina was, you know, was right and she had the personality, the home, you know, the, the--everything. So I started working with Pnina and then as, as the business, I guess, progressed, I needed more hosts, you know. Then I asked Pnina to introduce me to someone, and then I--someone else rang me. There's no one way to find hosts, but I have a checklist. It may not be written down on a computer, but I have a checklist in my, 00:28:00in my mind of all the things that I need in order to work with someone. You know, they need to be able to speak at least moderate Hebrew or some have sort of backup, okay, for translation. Their house has to be--it doesn't have to be a mansion, but it has to be at least a house where I wouldn't be embarrassed to bring guests from overseas into, you know. They have to be able to cook, which is actually the least important thing because they all know how to cook. And so there's, there's a certain checklist. You know, they have to have the personality to be able to, you know, to, to give of themselves to people they don't know. And so--and, and--I'll go back to the--a lot of people who say that they can actually see a lot of my youth movement background in the program. And I've never thought of it that way, but I guess in some ways there is, given a certain--I learned, I was a--I was a magid, I was a--

FERNHEIMER: --counselor?--

NIRENS: --a counselor, yeah, in the, in the 00:29:00youth movement and I went through courses, and I can see a lot of the methodology of getting people in and including people. It's stuff I guess I have learned in the past, and I've incorporated into my--into the programs. You know, and so, who, who--so the majority of our clients, the vast majority, I'd say, 80 percent to 85 percent of our clients, is incoming tourism, tourism--tourists from overseas. Partly because of cost, it's not a cheap program, and for tourists coming in from overseas who may be a bit--A, may or may not be wealthy or B, more likely, is gonna open up--when you're on holidays you're more likely to spend money that you wouldn't spend when you're at home. So therefore they pay the price that I, that I request in most, in most cases. And the opposite, Israelis might spend that same amount of money that I'm asking for my program if they're in France or, you know, 00:30:00the United States or elsewhere, but in Israel they're not willing to pay that money. And again, not for quote, but Israelis are hard. They're much harder than incoming--most guests that come from overseas are really appreciative of the fact that people have opened up their homes and, and, and, and this new, let's say, experience for them. Whereas Israelis sometimes can be more stiff-necked, as, as, as it says in the Bible. And so I tend--it's not--again, I work with Israelis and if I get orders I'll certainly, you know, happily facilitate home hospitality programs, but, but Israelis are a more difficult clientele. I guess because of my English and my culture, I've just got more of a leaning towards working with people who speak English.

FERNHEIMER: And so what is the language of the program? You said one of the criteria for identifying a host family is someone who speaks pretty good Hebrew, but if you're dealing with an international aud--aud--wow, if I could say the word audience, we'd be in business. An 00:31:00clientele or international audience, I imagine that's not the language that they're operating in. But maybe I'm making a false assumption here.

NIRENS: No, I'll explain. Again, one of the things that was always obvious to me, and isn't, and isn't always obvious even to the guests themselves or to the companies I work with or whatever, everyone in my pro--everyone in my programs, everyone in my events--okay--always has me or one of my staff members facilitating the, the event. That's to say that I will have--you get out of your car into a village, an Arab village--I'm saying US, let's say, is the guest--an Arab village that you know nothing about, and perhaps you're a little intimidated. Arab village, you don't know the difference of Druze or Muslim or, you know, or Christian, 00:32:00you need someone there for the first, even the first minute. "Hi, I'm Paul. Okay. You're at the home of Myad. You know. You're gonna hear about the Druze people. Myad happens to be a Druze woman." That facilitate--that facilitation and also translation--Myad doesn't speak English, so I will be there or one of my staff members will be there to, to translate. And again, it's not only translating the Hebrew to the English, which is also important, it's a cultural translation, as well. You're going into the home of someone who, again, whose, whose culture is totally foreign to anything you've ever experienced. That can be a little intimidating. You know, and so my facilitator's role isn't just to translate the English, you know, the Hebrew to English, it's to facilitate that--to make sure that, you know, it--they understand the culture, they understand what's being said or can give a certain view, of a Western 00:33:00view, on, on--you know and so it's that facilitation. And so, so it's important to me that my programs are authentic. If they're authentic, it means--and my hosts only speak Hebrew, and that's the way it is. I have an added cost in that I have to have someone there at all times, but I think it adds a lot to the program, having a facilitator there, whether it be me or someone else.

FERNHEIMER: How do you define authentic?

NIRENS: Whoa. Real, full-stop, as it, as it is.

FERNHEIMER: And you mean that in terms of the food, the culture?

NIRENS: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I don't ask my, I don’t ask my hosts to change their house in any way whatsoever. In fact, I insist that they don't. I don't interfere in, in the menu. Again, almost not at all, very, very slight--there are things that I like to have on the menu and things that I don't, 00:34:00not in terms of the actual food, but of the balance.

FERNHEIMER: Can you give me a specific example?

NIRENS: Yeah. Sometimes the whole thing of what I call a hot vegetable or a cooked salad is not always on the menu in a traditional meal. And I like to build the, the, the menu at least so it's vaguely familiar to, to our guests, vaguely familiar being a starch dish, you know, rice--we never serve potatoes because potatoes are not common in local--but let's say rice freekeh, bulgur wheat, a protein dish, you know, beef or chicken, a cooked vegetable--okay, often it can be okra or depending what--it's very, very, very seasonal--and a couple of salads, okay, and maybe a pastry, okay. They're not the things that necessarily if the fa--if my guests weren't there, the family itself 00:35:00might be eating things that--they may not have all those things, first of all. They've got guests and so they're gonna make more food than what they would make for themselves. And so like I said, that's why I say I interfere, but I never say to my guests, to my hosts, I'm sorry, I never say to my hosts do this, don't do that, I want you to cook this particular meal, because it's not, you know, it's not my kitchen. You know, if they want to come to my house, they can make requests and tell me what they want me to cook, you know, but, but in their home--and the, the only thing is it's authentic. It can't be spaghetti Bolognese. It has to be something that they learned from their parents or something that is produced or made locally. To me, that's authentic.

FERNHEIMER: What are some of the common dishes for each of the--

NIRENS: --almost every--first of all, the difference, the difference between Muslim, Muslim, Druze and Christian cooking is almost non-existent. It's almost exactly the same. Druze tend to use a little bit more cinnamon in their cooking, but 00:36:00that's, you know, that's about it. Almost all meals will have stuffed vegetables, whether it be rolled grape leaves or in winter, rolled cabbage leaves. Stuffed zucchinis or stuffed peppers or stuffed aubergines--

FERNHEIMER: --we say eggplant in the US, but--

NIRENS: --sorry, eggplant, okay.

FERNHEIMER: I'm just clarifying for our audience.

NIRENS: Stuffed, stuffed eggplants. Usually only one, again, we want as close as possible to a, to a home-cooked meal. When you're at home, you generally only have one protein, so usually the protein dish is what we call kofte tchina which are meat, meat kabobs cooked up in tchina. Sometimes we also make maklouba, which is a all-in-one rice pilaf, I guess you'd call it, which is turned over at the table. The hot salad, 00:37:00tabouli salad or a Fattoush salad or there's a few other salads we, we make. We sometimes have--there's a million different dough recipes that, that we can do, a Fataya or Manakish or--we'll often, like I said, especially if we've got kids, like I say, a dough dish.

FERNHEIMER: And that's what you consider a pastry?

NIRENS: Yeah, a pastry. To me, pastry is anything that's with a dough. It's not necessarily sweet. It's definitely not sweet, in fact.

FERNHEIMER: Sambousek or no?

NIRENS: Yeah, sometimes sambousek, sambousek we're generally not--we don't do, it's too common. But yeah, sambousek is one, like I say, real simple stuff we don't do, but we'll do fataya instead, which is similar, but better. Or we'll do manakish, which is pita with a topping, pita with zaatar, pita with pepper topping, almond topping, or zalabiyeh, which is a fried--a fried-- a fried spice bread. Or there's a few things. 00:38:00They're all great.

FERNHEIMER: And so, okay, this was mainly your business idea, and most of the clients are international, it sounds like. How--who are the people who sign up for workshops? Also international?

NIRENS: Yeah, mostly international.

FERNHEIMER: What's the demographic? Age range? Where do most of them come from? Is it Europe? The US? Asia?

NIRENS: No, mostly from US. First of all, most Israeli tourism--most tourism in Israel is from the US. Chinese tourism has--used to be, before COVID, was as big or bigger than American tourism in Israel. I don't think it's quite come back, and even if it did, it's not really a program that's appealing to most Chinese tourists.

FERNHEIMER: Because? Do you have any idea as to why?

NIRENS: Yeah, I've got plenty--I've got quite a clear reason why. Chinese are, are 00:39:00quite chauvinistic about their food. They are not interested in other food. This is a big generalization, but the vast majority insist on having a rice dish with all their meals, and I'm not willing to break the authenticity of my programs just because they insist on having a rice dish to their flavor. I just don't do it. They're not that interested in foreign cultures. They're much more interested in seeing the big, you know, seeing big things, in seeing the history, in seeing maybe the nature, but they're not interested in meeting people in general. We do get Chinese guests occasionally who are a bit wealthier, a bit more worldly that have traveled, more managerial, you know, owners of companies, but that's a minority with Chinese tourism. I've been told by many, many companies, and I, and I accept that my program isn't really--and it's expensive. Most, most of the Chinese--

FERNHEIMER: --what's the average 00:40:00cost of like--

NIRENS: --somewhere around--anywhere between $70 to $100 a person, it depends, depends on the programs. It can be--if it's a full-day culinary tour, which I run, then it's more. Then it's closer to $150 a person. But it, it really depends on the programs. But Chinese tourists, the Chinese, you know, for a meal, they expect to pay $30 to $40 per meal, and even that's a lot. I'm not in that--that's--I'm not interested in doing that.

FERNHEIMER: What, what made you decide to highlight these specific traditions? And what does it mean to be a Jewish person highlighting Arab traditions in this part of the world? Those are two questions, complicated--

NIRENS: --there are two questions. The first one goes back to what I said to you in the beginning when I started talking about my business. It's about prosaic. Arab food is sexy. 00:41:00That's to say that the vast--I've had, Jewish host families and I haven't succeeded in selling them. I haven't succeeded in marketing them because people are less interested but the idea of--you know, that whole thing of it being on the one hand not strictly didactic, not strictly educational like, you know, with a curriculum, but having certain control. Let's say the program isn't just hey, rocking up without someone being there, meaning--means that it's a total different culture, a total different experience that, that, that guests from the United States would never be able--would never either be brave--they don't have to be brave, but in their eyes would never be brave enough to do, would never the opportunity to do it.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I can't imagine being a random American tourist and having the contacts to make that happen.

NIRENS: That's the whole point, but, but, but they're interested in doing it. It's a whole cultural experience which is integral to the 00:42:00Israeli experience. It's part of Israel. And so, and so that's the mindset why I chose to work with my Arabic speak--my Arabic-speaking neighbors. I live in the Galilee and I consider them my neighbors. It was a business decision. That's where, that's where the demand was. And what's it like a Jewish guy working amongst, let's say, Arabs? I don't even ask myself this question. It's--I had a business idea and I do it and if an Arab was to come up and do it, then I would bless, I would be very happy, and in fact, there are some Druze women that do home hospitality programs who've dealt with me, you know, or work with me and also work independently. That's great and I'll support that. I'm not in any way scared of competition. The opposite, you know, I want more people to do it. I've got no problems with that, but it's always a business decision.

FERNHEIMER: So Galileat obviously is something that you 00:43:00see as really important, giving people access to--I'm gonna use the word Israeli cuisine here, and you can quibble with me about that.

NIRENS: Oh no, I won't at all. I agree with you.

FERNHEIMER: But tell me how you define Israeli food or Israeli cuisine.

NIRENS: Oh, that's a tough one.

FERNHEIMER: And how you see this interesting aspect of Arab culture contributing to that. So again, I'm asking two hard questions, so let's start with the first one.

NIRENS: They're great que--I mean, they're, they're, they're legitimate questions. They're good questions. I don't think I have an answer. I personally think there isn't an answer to what is Israeli cuisine. There are restaurants who do modern, what's called modern Israeli cuisine, and, and most of them are great. They're obviously existing, but I don't think there's one thing. You could go to the United States and there's this whole cuisine which is called American Italian cuisine or American Chinese cuisine, and it's a cuisine. It's a recognized 00:44:00cuisine. It's not, it's not the original, let's say, Italian cuisine from Italy. It's an adaption that's specific to America. You know, or you can get Mexican food in, you know, in the United States. But I don't think you--if I was to ask you what is American food, I don’t think--you know, because America is vast, you know, 250 million people, you know, enormous country, but, but you couldn't answer that. So Israel, whilst it's not nearly as vast as the American population, Israel is the in-gathering of the exiles by definition. And so therefore, the background, whether we're Eastern European, Central European, you know, food from the Maghreb, from, from North Africa, food from the 'Stans, where there's a lot of Jews that have come from Afghanistan, Tajikistan, all the 'Stans, which, that's their own culture.

FERNHEIMER: Uzbekistan.

NIRENS: And so all that together, and Israel being an amazing bread basket, having amazing--being a modern western country and having 00:45:00very, very good rural produce. So all that together has melted, it's a melting pot. It's coming together to make something that is--we would call today modern Israeli food. So that--that's what I think is, is Israeli food. And put in--and increasing in a way, to say increasingly, add to that melting pot the food that's been here for hundreds of years, which is the, the food of the Arabs. Okay, ---------(??) there are many, many Syrian Jews living in Israel and a little bit less, Lebanese Jews living in Israel, and certainly Egyptian Jews. And so the food of this region has both a history of the Jews that have come from the countries that surround us, but also the locals that live in the Galilee, and let's say in the area between Haifa and Tel Aviv, the Meshulash, but I think that's less of an influence today.

FERNHEIMER: Meshulash is triangle.

NIRENS: Yeah, is the triangle--is the triangle where there are a lot--very, very 00:46:00many, many, many Arabs live. I think their influence over Israeli society, Israeli cuisine is a lot less than near the Galilee. The Galilee is--has been touted as, you know, Israel's Provence, Israel's Tuscany. I don't really like those comparisons because each one of them has their own, their own identity. But I can certainly understand that the north is very much Israel's bread basket in terms of it gets the most rain and, you know, in terms of the good soil and, and all those things. The influence of the food, of the Arabs, has seeped in quite quickly--flooded in, if not seeped--into mainstream Israeli, mainstream Israeli cuisine. I think it's--well, I think it's inseparable and I think it's inseparable in a good way. You know, I think it's all part of that melting pot. I don't know if that answers your question or whether there's some way to answer it. And I think it's a very positive, I think it's a very, very positive 00:47:00development, because that's the food that was here 100 years ago. You know, there was no Moroccan food here 100 years ago. There was no Russian food here 100 years ago. Even French food there wasn't here 100 years ago. But it was certainly Arab food 100 years ago, and the dishes that my hosts prepare, or that my--or that my--for my guests, or the food that my guests prepare with my hosts if it's a cooking workshop, this is food that was, that was--these are dishes that have been handed down from mother to daughter. And you know, you can say that I'm being--what's the word--sexist here, but it was mother to daughter and that's the way it is, whether you like it or not. You know. From grandmother and great-grandmother and great-great-grandmother, all the way through the generations. And so that's--this is food that's super local. And so as Israel--as Israeli cuisine develops, you know, I think that the local food which has always been here, is 00:48:00now again flooding--I won't even say seeping--is flooding into the local cuisine.

FERNHEIMER: So I guess this brings me back to an earlier question, talking about the impetus for starting the business. You said it's disappointing, it's so prosaic, it's just business. But, but it's not just business, right, because you chose these cooks to feature. And while maybe there's more demand for the Arab cooks, to, to be an immigrant who lives here and chooses to highlight the local culture and cuisine in this way, that's a choice. Tell me about that choice.

NIRENS: I, I, I--you--I only half agree with, with, with your statement. A statement is a statement of fact, but first of all, immigrant? I've been living in the Galilee now for 40 years. No, no, no, no. It's a fine, no, no--English is my mother tongue, we're talking in English. I have an Anglo Saxon culture, so you're right, but I see myself as a man of the Galilee as much as my neighbors. Okay?

FERNHEIMER: Fair.

NIRENS: You know, no, no, I'm not criticizing you. Don't--you're making some faces and you're apologizing. It's absolutely fine. But I'm defining that, that being an immigrant didn't affect my mindset. It maybe affected the way I set up my business. Okay, the mindset of doing things very, very correctly, of not cutting corners, I think that was my Anglo Saxon background, maybe youth movement background, maybe, you know, doing things properly, and not--you know--that, that yes. That's on one side. On the other side, the whole--I still claim it was a business decision. I, I still say--come and say that I had this idea to do authentic local culinary experiences in the Galilee because I experienced something similar in Umbria, Italy, and authentic local cooking is that of the Arabs of the Galilee. And I saw that as a business opportunity. My--the facts or let's say that I was proven right, 00:50:00let's just say, it wasn't just me that thought that. I convinced other people that this was the, you know, that this was a , this was a correct move. And then I'll, then I'll contradict myself. Okay? Well, nothing is clear. I have no problems contradicting myself because I'm a human, and we contradict ourselves all the time. I'll contradict myself and say I'm very aware that it's social business. I'm very aware of the good that my business does, but I don't do politics. I don't come out waving any flags about me being a Jew and working with my Arab--I mean, it's there, it's, it's there, but you won't find it on my website as being me pushing this whole thing of coexistence. So I don't do it. It's not what I--I believe in coexistence, obviously, but it's not what I believe in as my business model. My business model is interesting, it's, it's, it's good, it's done properly, and I very much believe that I'm making the Galilee a better place to live, and here is the 00:51:00ideology. It's, it's, you know, it's something that I'm interested in that's important to me. I say all the time, I've said it three times today, I don't make shoes. You know, it's, it's--I know that I am doing good, and I know my hosts recognize that and appreciate that. So that is important. I can't, I can't deny that it's just a pure money-making business.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, so you just said you don't do politics, but I'm gonna ask some questions here that--

NIRENS: --no, no, I'll answer you. I have no problem answering politics, but I don't do, I don’t do politics within the definition of, of, of my business, A, because it's business and not everyone necessarily agrees with my politics; and B, I don't need to. Anyone who comes to my program can see that you're in the home of someone who's an Arab and speaks Arabic, and it doesn't matter whether they're Christian, Muslim or Druze, and that they're bringing people together, and what brings us together, and what we have in common is far more than what separates us. But I don’t need to--I don't need to say that. 00:52:00I've just said it, but I don't need to say that in my business model. I don't need to say that on my website. People learn that without me having to say it to them, and I think that, in fact, I think they absorb it much more without me ramming it down their throat. That's why I don't do bus--that's why I don’t do politics, but I have political views. If you want to ask me, you're welcome to. If you don't want to, that's also cool.

FERNHEIMER: Tell me a little bit--we're kind of dancing around it and you've talked a little bit about it, too, but tell me about your understanding of the relationship between food, culture and national identity.

NIRENS: Ooh, it's inseparable. It's one.

FERNHEIMER: And so what does that look like here in Israel where it's not one? Right?

NIRENS: Well, it is one. I'm not talking about--well, put it this way, in terms--you go to Tel Aviv and you'll go to what's called a modern Israeli restaurant or you'll go to an ethnic-- to a, to a, you know, an ethnic restaurant, we call it. An ethnic restaurant whether it be Ethiopian, whether it be Moroccan, whether it be Russian or whatever. Then the identity comes from the background, 00:53:00whoever the, you know, whoever the chef is. But in terms, as a country or the food that I serve, let's say, that my, my hosts serve, I have no problem talking about national identity, but certainly when it comes to culture and, and food, you can't sep--you can't separate. The food is part of the culture. You, you, you walk into someone's home, you are given coffee. Okay. That's part of the culture. It's not food--you're not given food. You're given coffee as a sign of welcome, as a sign of--coffee was always very expensive. Here I'm willing to open up my home and give you the most expensive part of my kitchen. Okay. I'm, I'm sharing a cup with you, even if you are my enemy. I'm sitting with you. We could do with some more of that in Israel.

FERNHEIMER: Indeed.

NIRENS: I'm sitting with you over a cup, we're drinking from the same pot. That's a cultural, that's a cultural thing. 00:54:00You know, my mother, I'm Dutch by my mother. I'm now talking first-person from my host families. My mother made this dish, this is who I am. We serve grape leaves in the spring and summer, but in the winter we serve cabbage leaves because there's no fresh grape leaves to be had. That's part of our culture. We serve freekeh--freekeh is smoked, smoked green wheat--which is Biblical. In the days of the Bible, they would smoke 30 percent of the wheat in order to preserve it in case of crop failure. That, all the way through the past 4,000 years has been done. Not because of crop failures, we're not scared of crop failure anymore, and if we are, it's more crop failure in the Ukraine than we are worried about crop failure in Israel. But that freekeh is still part embedded in the, in the culture. So there's no--you can't, you can't separate that. Now when it comes to nationalism, and if you, if you, if you want to go towards it's like, you know, how the Palestinians view their food and, and, and 00:55:00how that is--has been absorbed into Israeli culture, it's a political question that's above my, above my pay grade. Israeli culture is made up of the immigrants that came from all over the world. It's made up of the people whose, whose parents and ancestors have been here for hundreds, if not thousands of years. And that's all part of Israeli culture, okay. Therefore, whatever the food is of that particular culture is coming into a modern culture, and that includes the food of let's say the Palestinians, then, then that's, then that's part of, of modern Israeli culture. It's also part of Palestinian culture. But the Druze, who I work a lot with, they don't, they don't see themselves anyway as being Palestinian, and again, not even in terms of the politics of what we consider Palestinian today. They don't see themselves historically as being part of the Palestinian nation, and yet their food is almost exactly the same. 00:56:00Okay. So, so what does that mean in terms of food and nationalism? You know. It's the food of the Levant. It was mostly the largest influences is that of Lebanon. There are, there are influences that came in from Syria, as well, but most of their food is, is from Lebanon. And, and there are theories that say Lebanese was, was essentially developed by the Turks when the Ottomans controlled the Levant. So therefore, again food, all food, everywhere around the world in any culture, is influenced by what existed because that's what the land gives us. It's taken by people who, who quest the land? People who--

FERNHEIMER: --conquer?--

NIRENS: --conquer the land, conquerors who bring in their own culture and that changes and then there's a spread of food and culture throughout a region. That's the history of, 00:57:00that's the history--and, and that becomes the identity of the nation. You know, the culinary identity of the nation comes out of that melting pot and out of that, that, that transposing or that--what's the word--of coming together of, of cultures.

FERNHEIMER: Obviously you've anticipated the contentious role or place that, that food plays in relationship to national identity here, especially in the context of Israel/Palestine.

NIRENS: Yeah, let me just say--sorry, I'm gonna be controversial now, up until now I haven't been. I categorically reject, okay, the--I categorically reject the, the claim that Israel has stolen--Israel has stolen--it's another example of Israel stealing the Palestinian culture by stealing its food. I reject that absolutely. 00:58:00I don't reject the fact that there's a Palestinian nation and that they have their own culinary traditions. Under no circumstance do I reject that. I've always said it's not for me to define a person, what their culture is, what their nationality is and what their cuisine is. And so I fully accept that there's a Palestinian national cuisine if there is, and I don't know enough about it. To say exactly what that is, I actually do know enough about what this, but, but, but I accept it on face value. But to, but to say that Israel has stolen it or incorporated into Israeli culture, I think that's a compliment, not an insult. I think it's a good thing. I think it's, I think it's true, but not in the negative sense of stealing. I think Israel as a growing, developing country has developed what is the local culture and the local cuisine and food culture into its own, into its own national culture. But I don't see it as cultural appropriation in any way, shape or form.

FERNHEIMER: So what do you say, or why do you think people argue about things like who owns Israeli salad or 00:59:00or hummus or falafel?

NIRENS: It's because Israel and Palestinians will find anything to argue over. It really is a real--and again, the Palestinians don't accept that Israel is a Jewish state. Many, many Jews in Israel don't accept that there's even a Palestinian state or that the Palestinians have rights. Therefore, we have an almost insolvable conflict, unfortunately, where both nations don't respect the rights of each other. And when you have that situation, you're always gonna accuse the other of, of every si--of every single bad thing that's ever happened under the sun. And that's why I think it is here. I think if, if Israel and the Palestinians--and I'm not, I'm not naïve. And if Israel and the Palestinians could find a way to work out their problems, then this whole thing of cultural and culinary appropriation would probably disappear as well.

FERNHEIMER: Given the extent that 01:00:00local cuisines, and I mean local in terms of Palestinian cuisines or Arab cuisines, have become such a foundational or fundamental part of what is recognized now as Israeli food and cuisine, to what extent might food then become a possibility, something that opens some potentialities? I mean, some of that you see in your business model, or at least I think others see in your business model, even if you're not ramming it down their throats, per se. But the idea to which food can play a different kind of role, talk to me about that. I haven't done the greatest job of asking questions.

NIRENS: No, no, no, you've done great.

FERNHEIMER: The questions I ask aren't easy.

NIRENS: Unfortunately, unfortunately I'm too much of a cynic to think that it makes any real difference. That's to say that I'm proud to be--I have a, I have a, I have an Israeli Muslim host 01:01:00whose identity, she identifies as Israeli Palestinian. I have no problem with that whatsoever. Again, it's not for me to say how someone identifies. People are proud to come into her home and they feel that they are making a difference. Now I'm really gonna shatter everything. It's rubbish. I'm not making any difference whatsoever. I mean, I'm being extreme here. It's up to the leaders of our nations to find a way to live together. And again, it's better to at least, even on a one-on-one, to find common ground. If that common ground is through food and I can contribute to that, then I'm proud to do that, proud and happy to do that. And if in 20 years' time someone remembers well, Paul was a pioneer of, you know, of bringing people into the, the, the homes of the Arabic-speaking, the Arabic speaking population of Israel and he was one of the pioneers and through that 01:02:00we've got a better understanding of, of Arab culture in Israel, then I'll be very proud and very happy if that's the case. And again, I'm not so big-headed to think that's what it's gonna be. But if that is the case, then I'm very proud. But to actually say that that's gonna make a difference in how the Israelis and the Palestinians are gonna settle their differences in, in 10, 20, 30 or 50 years' time, I'm not so naïve to think that. But every positive step is a positive step, and every negative step is a negative step. So if I can contribute a little bit by being positive, then that's great.

FERNHEIMER: I'm gonna change gears a little bit. Tell me top ten Israeli foods, quick, without thinking too much.

NIRENS: Ten Israeli foods?

FERNHEIMER: Top ten.

NIRENS: Top, top ten Israeli foods. I'm gonna be really boring. Falafel, shawarma, hummus, without me thinking. Sabich, now you've got me, eggplant, eggplant. I'm just throwing 01:03:00without, without thinking. Kabobs. Top ten Israeli food. I said shawarma already, tchina, chicken soup, chick--chicken soup for sure. Couscous for sure, ptitim, pititm, I don’t know what do you call it in English?

FERNHEIMER: It's not Israeli couscous? No.

NIRENS: It's what you call Israeli couscous, but it's not couscous.

FERNHEIMER: It's bigger than couscous.

NIRENS: Yeah, it's not couscous. It's not made in the same way as couscous. It's a, it's a type of dough. It's totally different from couscous. I think overseas you call it Israeli couscous, totally wrong. Certainly ptitim. That's close to ten, that's about it.

FERNHEIMER: Okay. What about the role of ethnic food there?

NIRENS: Oh, is there--count it--look at it, I've got chicken soup, you know, I've got, I've got ptitim, I've got couscous, you know, I've got sabich, you know, shawarma, no one knows where it 01:04:00comes from. Falafel, no one knows where it comes from. Hummus, everyone in the Middle East says it's theirs, you know, doesn't matter the Palestinians, Egyptians, the Lebanese, we all say it's ours. But that's, that's certainly local. Tchina is across the entire Middle East. So a lot of it is imported because it's a melting pot of a country. You know, you're not going to get chicken soup as one of the national dishes as Lebanon or Egypt. So like I say, it represents that melting pot of both local and bringing everything in.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Next quick-hit question. Who are the top five, six people you think I need to interview for this project? Obviously -----------(??)---------- this trip, but I'm not gonna--

NIRENS: --certainly Uri, I mean, you know, who you--Uri Buri, who I think is not--

FERNHEIMER: --who's up next--

NIRENS: --yeah, who's up next. Not because of his restaurant, but because he is a pioneer of fine food in Israel. 01:05:00I think, I think Adeena, who I know you--I think she's a very important figure.

FERNHEIMER: Adeena Sussman.

NIRENS: Adeena Sussman is a very, very important figure. As much as--I think Ayel Shani is a very important figure in Israeli cuisine. I don't know what to do with him.

FERNHEIMER: Miznon.

NIRENS: But, but I think, I think Haim Cohen was one of the first chefs to bring home cooking into fine dining. He based a lot of his food on his mother's food, and it, and it made Michelin Star--we don't have Michelin Star in Israel, but certainly, you know, very, very, very fine dining out of food that he brought from home. I think that's a very interesting and important--I would say Zuzu, I can't remember his surname, who's probably the top Arab chef in Israel.

FERNHEIMER: Hassan? Hanan?

NIRENS: Zuzu Hassan? Hanan? Might be, yeah, I think so.

FERNHEIMER: He just did a cookbook with Janna Gur, 01:06:00Galilee Table I think?

NIRENS: He might have, yeah, but he's certainly one of the first chefs that really brought Palestinian food, local Arab food, into the, you know, in, in, into the fine dining of Israel. Meir Adoni, who's one of the, who's one of the, the, the trailblazers of great Israeli food. I would like you--and you know what? Having said all that, I would love you to meet Pnina. You know, my, one of my--

FERNHEIMER: --what's her last name?--

NIRENS: --Ghanam, G-H-A-N-A-M. She's just a local--when I say just a local cook, she's an amazing, amazing cook. She's never studied professionally. I think she left school in year 10. But I think her contribution, not to Israel as a, as a country, but in terms of her view of 01:07:00local food and of, of the food of the Galilee, her knowledge is as much as what Haim Cohen's food is, you know, knowledge of, of fine Israeli dining. So I would--I--one of my--it doesn't have to be Pnina, but I think one of my hosts are just as important--

FERNHEIMER: --no, absolutely--

NIRENS: --to, to, to local cuisine, to Israeli cuisine, to the understanding of Israeli cuisine as Uri, who I, who I have nothing but admiration for.

FERNHEIMER: Absolutely.

NIRENS: You know, absolute admiration. So that also.

FERNHEIMER: I know, I know we're kind of running short on time. I want to ask you one, is there anything I haven't yet had the opportunity to ask you about that you wanna share?

NIRENS: Well, you might want to ask me what Galileat is gonna do next or what is the future of Israel--or what is my, what is my opinion of the future of Israeli cuisine?

FERNHEIMER: Yes, both, both questions, tell me.

NIRENS: But you're the boss, 01:08:00so I can't--I'm not running the interview, okay.

FERNHEIMER: Both questions, tell me. First let's--

NIRENS: --Galileat is going into--

FERNHEIMER: --what, what's next for Galileat? Galileat?

NIRENS: Galileat. I've just met--I've just been put onto someone, and this is a program that again, I've, I've spent the last I don't know how long, hour saying how I don't do politics. And now I'm gonna contradict myself, which you can get used to it.

FERNHEIMER: Welcome to Israel.

NIRENS: Yeah, exactly. I've, I've been introduced--well, again, I haven't been introduced yet, but I'm, I'm about to be introduced to a religious Jewish woman who lives in a, in a, in a place called Moreshet. It's next to--it's three kilometers away from a town called Kaukab, which is where my Israeli Palestinian Muslim host lives. And I actually want to do, want to develop a program where I have a religious Jewish woman cooking with a religious 01:09:00Muslim woman. And it's a total breakout of everything that I've always done. I just think it's--I think it's-- but you know what, but I'm gonna go back to my cold, I think it's a great business idea. Sorry for being cold, I'm not cold. But I think it's a great idea.

FERNHEIMER: Why?

NIRENS: I think it's a great business idea and I think it's also a great idea. I wanna see--I do wanna show people that we can cook, that a religious Jewish woman can do cooking workshops with non-religious--with a--sorry, with a religious Muslim woman. I wanna develop more--I want to break out a little bit, which we're doing, out of just cooking workshops, and become even more of an expert in everything to do with culinary, say the culinary tourism of Israel, whether that means more, more work with my--with local people around the olive press, the olive season, I'm sorry, in October, whether it be freekeh--as far as I know, I'm the only person in the world, I've never seen it anywhere 01:10:00either in Israel or elsewhere, that does freekeh-making tours in the two-week window--

FERNHEIMER: -which is when? I should know, but I don't--

NIRENS: --no, well, you don't have to know. It's around the end of April, beginning of May. It's when the bushes are still green and we harvest--the harvest festival, of course, is Shavuot, which is usually the end of May, beginning of June. Pesach is--

FERNHEIMER: --so it's after Pesach and before Shavuot--

NIRENS: --it's exactly in the middle. The bushes are still green, it hasn't gone, it hasn't gone brown yet. And you go--I take guests into the field, we harvest green wheat and smoke it in the fields. So much more local, regional really, really, ultra-local culinary activities. And becoming what, I think in some ways not what I set out to be--not what I thought in the beginning, which I think from a foodie mindset. Yeah, foodie, there I used it, there we are. You got me. (both laughs) 01:11:00Not from a food explorer's mindset, not just a food program. I realized very quickly it's a cultural program. You know, I realized after about a month that it was actually a cultural program as much as it was a food program. But develop that food and culture expertise the Galilee is known for. Okay? So that--that's what--that's how I see the future of, of Galileat. The future of Israeli cuisine, I think that, that going back to what we spoke about, how local--looking for a pen?

FERNHEIMER: No, I was looking for my--I was gonna try and get a picture of you while you were chatting. We'll do it after.

NIRENS: Going, going back to what we spoke about, how the influence of the local, the local cuisine that existed here, again, whether it be called Palestinian cuisine, whether it be called Israeli Arab cuisine, whether it be Druze cuisine, there's 01:12:00not a big difference. I think that's gonna become more and more embedded into the local--and as it should be. You know, this is the food--and I think that Israel has gone as far as it can in many ways with the incoming of the exile cuisine, the cuisine of the Moroccans, of the, of the Libyans, of the, you know, of the Eastern Europeans or whatever, you know. Again, it's always gonna develop, but I think now we're gonna see the realization that, that--what the land has given us, the land of milk and honey, what it's given us for the last 4,000 years is more and more going to become the basis of modern Israeli food. And whether that's going to cause even more friction because it's gonna become a stronger part of our culinary identity, we need more friction in this country. Any excuse to have friction in this country, we don't need an excuse. If it's not that, it'll be something else. You know, but that's how--that's how I see the, the future. I think that, that, that 01:13:00they'll be--even today, I think Israel is known to be a culinary hotspot, you know.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, I wanted to ask you about the future of culinary tourism here. When, when--Galileat started ten years ago?

NIRENS: Yeah, I was really ahead of my time, I'm glad to say, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: But that's--I mean, I remember you come on these different kinds of trips and they take you into people's homes and things like that. I don't remember a particular company before that.

NIRENS: No, I was the first.

FERNHEIMER: Who do you see--competitors, people doing similar kinds of things? And what's next? I've been staying in Tel Aviv. There are all kinds of tours all over the markets and things like that, but I wanna say those are also the last 10, 15 years.

NIRENS: I can't tell you what's next. You know, so what comes to mind is a bit drab, and I'll say more of the same. But more of the same, getting better, we develop--Israel is a startup nation, and, and I don't mean 01:14:00just in terms of ideas, which is -----------(??)----------. New ideas, whether it be with high tech or whether it be with, you know, culinary tourism, I think we'll just continue developing and fine-tuning what we have already. I can't see anything radically different coming about. Now having said that, this is something that you might wanna develop, is there's guys, and there's a restaurant--there's a restaurant called Brut, B-R-U-T. Now besides the restaurant--

FERNHEIMER: --B-R-U-T--

NIRENS: --B-R-U-T like Brutus, yeah, B-R-U-T.

FERNHEIMER: Like Brut champagne?

NIRENS: Yeah, like Brut champagne, yeah. The two guys that own it--I can forward you the details--they have a laboratory. The food is modern Israeli food, it's a little bit more funky than maybe most 01:15:00Israeli food, you know. But they also have a, a, a laboratory and a whole--where they do all sorts of experiments. A lot of it is with, with, what's this--it's with all sorts of pickling and, you know, and that whole thing, which is quite trendy today. And they're very much into finding new avenues and new expressions of Israeli cuisine. If you want, I can find, I can find--they're in Tel Aviv--I can give you the details. I think that one of the things that I haven't spoken about in terms of the future of Israeli cuisine, Israel is the world leader in food tech. I think that is going to influence modern Israeli--it's gonna influence world cuisine in Israel. There's 10 million people here. It's not big enough to actually make a dent in the world, but I think Israeli food tech--and it will, it will trickle down. There's a restaurant that I'm actually going to go to at the end of the month and we're gonna have to re--I'll have to send you 01:16:00because I don't remember what it's called--where a friend of mine recommended very strongly, and apparently their whole thing is they only use products that were made or grown in Israel. They use no rice at all, I don't think, because we don't grow rice in Israel. They only use products--everything, their entirety, is grown in Israel. And I think we will find that that is gonna be a direction that we're going to go in, of, of hyper-local production of people saying wow, we have the best food in the world, the best growing--I don't know about the best, but as good as anywhere in the world, you know, conditions in Israel. Why shouldn’t--so why should I use rice that's grown in China or in the, you know, the valley or whatever it's called in Italy or wherever, when I can use freekeh or I can use, you know, locally-grown ancient 01:17:00flour--grains which are available today? Ancient grains, which have had a rebirth, which you can get if you look for them. Or why should I, you know, why shouldn't I use that? I think that is, is going to be the future of Israeli cuisine, much more taking the whole concept of farm to table and, and not doing it as a, as a bland cry that you have in restaurants around the world, which I think is mostly rubbish. Sorry, I am a bit opinionated. But they're actually gonna take it and say right, where--there's a place called Havat Zuk, I don't know if you've interviewed them, where everything in their restaurant, almost everything in their restaurant, is grown in their, in their farm. They have a whole ideology to it. And that's going to be much more of, of hyper-local, not necessarily being everything grown in Tel Aviv if it's a Tel Aviv restaurant, but hyper-local being only using Israeli products for everything in your restaurant or only producing 01:18:00everything on your own farm and everything from your farm is what you're going to use in your restaurant. That, I think, is, is, is the way, is the way forward. And it's really, it's really interesting. It's funky. I mean, it's probably called--you know, it's funny, it's 'cause--it's stuff you won't get anywhere in the world.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, yeah. So speaking of anywhere--all the way back on the other side of the world, any advice you have for most--my students or University of Kentucky college students as a business owner, as a person who lives here, anything as they embark on their journey to learn about food and foodways in Israel Palestine? Or just in life in general?

NIRENS: Yeah, I'm gonna broaden it and say life in general. I have a rule, and probably most of your students are gonna hate this rule. Okay. 'Cause you may have vegetarians and vegans and whatever in your, in your--as your students. Eat anything. 01:19:00Eat everything. Don't be scared to eat anything. I live by that. Eat. Experience culture through food. And eat and experience every type of food you can, you can experience. That's a good idea. [phone ringing] You given me a great idea. You know that--you have Andrew, Andrew's, not Simmons, what's his name who does weird food? I can do an Israeli weird food. There's lots of weird and obnoxious food. I can do an Israeli--

FERNHEIMER: -is anyone selling the locusts that are kosher--

NIRENS: --they're passé. I don't think anyone cares about them. And it's a--they're actually apparently only kosher to, they're only kosher Yemenite Jews.

FERNHEIMER: Oh interesting, of course.

NIRENS: The Yemenites eat them, or used to eat them. 01:20:00I'm not, I'm not convinced that they're regarded as kosher by the Israeli rabbi. I don't know enough about it. The whole thing--excuse me, I hope I don't gross you out here--but, you know, bulls' testicles, which, which are a delicacy in certain populations here, which, which are okay. They're nothing special. But, you know, but, but things like that, you could probably do a pretty cool, cool tour. But don't be scared to eat food and don't be scared to--whether it be in Israel or in the Palestinian territories if you're gonna visit there, or anywhere else in the world, meet people by, by--meet people by experiencing their food. That's what I do whenever I'm overseas. And that's what I do for people coming to Israel. That's to say that that's very much, whilst it's not my motto, you know, in terms of my business, it's very much what I believe, that, that I want people to meet other cultures and other people through using food as the, the tool. That's certainly how I would--that's how I like to travel and 01:21:00and that's how I would advise your potential students to, to, if they want to understand a little bit about culture and food, then put that into practice. You know, understand culture by, by being open to all different types of food. If you're gonna be a vegan, then you're gonna have trouble doing that.

FERNHEIMER: Well, thank you so much, Paul. This has been wonderful. I am so grateful for your patience as I sat on the train. (both laugh) That wasn't moving.

NIRENS: That was a--'cause I'm not always so nice. (laughs) It just wasn't your fault. It just--under no circumstances could I say, oh, this woman is an idiot, why am I wasting my time for her? It had nothing to do with you. The leader of--you know, whoever's head of the Israel railways is an idiot. Why is this person destroying my day and your day? That was much more my, my anger. It was in no way vented towards you. Because you had--you did everything right.

FERNHEIMER: Well, I'm very grateful that you, you waited it out and that I finally made it here and we were able to have a wonderful interview.

NIRENS: Yes. Thank you very much.

FERNHEIMER: Thank you so much.

NIRENS: My pleasure.

[End of interview.]