Interview with Connor Giffin, October 4, 2023

CAGLE: 00:01:00All right, this is Lauren Cagle. I'm here with Connor Giffin at the University of Louisville Library on October 3rd, 2023 for the final, I believe, interview, um, of the Kentucky Climate Consortium's Climate Oral History Project. Connor, thank you for being here.

GIFFIN: Yeah, thanks for having me.

CAGLE: Yeah. Okay, so we're going to start with the, um, it's either the easiest or the hardest question I'm gonna ask, which is tell me a little bit about yourself.

GIFFIN: Yeah, probably the hardest. Uh, yeah, so I'm originally from the San Francisco Bay Area in California. Uh, I, I liked writing and wanted to find a way to do something with that. So, I, I looked for good journalism schools, ended up going to the University of Missouri for that. Uh, and at the University of Missouri, I heard about the Report for America program where they were looking to place kind of emerging journalists, um, in newsrooms all around the country to cover undercover topics. Uh, and Report for America is very similar to kind of Teach for America 00:02:00and AmeriCorps and some of those kind of programs. But, um, uh, I did get a role through Report for America and they placed me here in Louisville, Kentucky, uh, with the Courier Journal and I cover environment for them. I've covered environment since June of 2022 for that paper. Um, and part of my role there is to cover environment, energy, climate, natural disasters, some infrastructure and urban planning things that are kind of adjacent. It's a pretty broad beat that I've got to have a lot of fun with. Uh, and then part of that role was also, uh, the Mississippi River Basin Ag and Water Desk, which is basically just a big collaboration of environmental reporters all around the Mississippi River Basin, which includes the Ohio River Basin. Uh, and we kind of collaborate on stories around agriculture, water, climate, things like that, and share those all around for, for, republication and papers all over the region.

CAGLE: That's awesome. I have a lot of things I want to follow up on. Well, okay, a quick factual one. Um, 00:03:00how long is there a, a, sort of time limit to the Report for America position here? Like Teach for America is a two or three year?

GIFFIN: Yeah. So that program is, it's kind of annual. So, most people in Report for America do it for about two years. You do two years and there's like a check in halfway. After the first year, if either the newsroom isn't liking me or I'm not liking my newsroom or I want to try something else, um, you can cut ties after one year or you can renew for a second. I renewed for a second, so I'm in my second year now. Um, and there's an optional third year. So, I'll, I’ll have the choice to renew. Um, I think they'll probably ask me around the end of this year, early next year, if I want to do that--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --if they want to keep me.

CAGLE: Yeah. I won't make you go on record about whether or not--

GIFFIN: --(laughs)--well they, they--

CAGLE: --you like your newsroom --(laughs)--

GIFFIN: --they’ve asked me that and, uh, you know--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --it, that’s, that's something that I don't, I don’t have time to really think about yet and I’ll, I'll kind of feel it out when the, when the question comes, I think.

CAGLE: Yeah. That makes sense. Um, I want to go back much further than this, but I don't want to lose track of this question. So, you mentioned, you know, 00:04:00it's a pretty broad beat--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --this is one thing I wanted to talk to you about anyways. Uh, you know, in academia, one of the challenges we run into, as, I'm faculty, is that, nobody owns climate because it touches everything--

GIFFIN: --right–

CAGLE: --and nobody owns environment, it touches any, everything. But functionally, you have to give it to somebody, right? Somebody has to teach the classes. Somebody has to confer the degrees. Somebody has to cover the stories--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --so how do you sort of navigate when, you know, stories seem to be traveling into a different beat or maybe you see something that is like not sort of technically yours, but clearly has a connection?

GIFFIN: Yeah. That, that's one of the challenges. It's funny that you asked that because we were just talking about that, um, with some of my Ag and Water Desk folks. We were kind of discussing, like, how can we as the environmental reporter, in most newsrooms, unless you're the New York Times or something, you don't have more than one environmental reporter. And so this huge beat kind of falls into one person's like, um, you know, we're the only ones in the newsroom thinking 00:05:00about climate every single day--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, and we're kind of discussing like, what, how much responsibility do we have to tell our fellow reporters who are equally and overly invested –(laughs)-- into their thing that they're supposed to cover, and, you know, the business reporters and the politics reporters who spend all day thinking about their beat? You know, what is our responsibility to remind them? You know, I think you’re, you're writing about this really important topic. Here's this angle. Here's how climate touches what you're writing about--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --or here's how, you know, these things are intertwined because like you said, climate pretty much reaches every story that we write in some way if you, if you really follow it all the way down. Um, and so, that, that's kind of, I guess, kind of a hard question to answer is like, how, how much responsibility do we have to incorporate that climate angle into every story we write without, um, kind of beating the dead horse on it? And, and, and, uh, you know, I think, I think if you incorporate it into everything, 00:06:00it almost oversaturates the problem. But, um, yeah, that, that's the question is like, when, when do we cross paths on that and when do we try to keep it separate, I guess.

CAGLE: Right. Because you don't want it to become background noise.

GIFFIN: Right.

CAGLE: Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, let's go way back. So, you're from the Bay Area, where in the Bay Area.

GIFFIN: I was born in the city--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --in San Francisco, um, and then spent most of my formative years, uh, in more San Mateo County area. Um, grew up in Foster City for the most part and went to San Mateo High School.

CAGLE: Nice. Uh, I love that area--

GIFFIN: --yeah.

CAGLE: My mom's side of the family's all like in San Francisco and North--

GIFFIN: --right, yeah--

CAGLE: --so we go visit every year, which is so nice.

GIFFIN: Yeah. My dad lives up in Marin now and that's--

CAGLE: --oh yeah--

GIFFIN: --gorgeous.

CAGLE: That's where, yeah. One of my aunts is in Marin. So, um, when I think of California, I think of a very different environmental landscape than we have--

GIFFIN: --absolutely--

CAGLE: --here. Right. So, were you like an outdoorsy kid or?

GIFFIN: Yeah. I liked hiking and camping and all those things. And I think that probably 00:07:00deep down was an influence in me trying to pursue this. Um, California is a different environmental landscape, both politically and, and, kind of their ambition to tackle climate questions, um, compared to places like Kentucky, um, politically. But, uh, it's also a very different landscape in terms of the problems they're facing. Um, you don't really hear Kentucky talking about running out of water as like one of our more immediate climate--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --concerns, um--

CAGLE: --if anything, we have too much--

GIFFIN: --right--

CAGLE: --water a lot of--

GIFFIN: --right--

CAGLE: --the time.

GIFFIN: Um, and so that was kind of, that was another adjustment to make because everywhere you go there's different kind of first climate problems that are arriving earlier than others--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]. Do you think, um. I mean, were you, so were you paying attention to that stuff while you were living in California? The--

GIFFIN: --uh--

CAGLE: --sort of political piece of it and, and what was going on?

GIFFIN: Yeah. I mean, when I was living in California, I, I left from Missouri when I was seventeen 00:08:00and I, I didn't know I was going to even go to journalism school until maybe a year before that.

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative].

GIFFIN: And I had no idea I was going to be covering environment at all, um, when I, when I was living in California. Um, but I do remember as a kid, my parents telling me, hey, like we're not supposed to use too much water. Like, the, the state told us, you know, take shorter showers, don't wash the cars often, things like that. Um, and I remember, you know, the, the wildfires and things like that were, were in the news and--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --things like that. Um, and so it, it was definitely something that you couldn't completely not realize was happening--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --even as a kid. But it wasn't something I was maybe thinking of, as, uh, (laughs) as often as I am now, which is pretty much all the time (laughs)

CAGLE: --all the time. Yeah. But also, I think there's maybe an age element, right? As, um, this would have been in like the two, 2000s and 2010s, right?

GIFFIN: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

CAGLE: So, I wonder 00:09:00how true that was that, that it was like background noise in previous decades. And I, I don't know what the answer is, yeah--

GIFFIN: --yeah, I really can't speak to that. Like I, it, like I said, it was something that as a kid you hear about and--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --you're probably as a kid, I probably did not put too much weight on it. And--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --it was just like, oh, politics, you know--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --I wasn't really--(Cagle laughs)--into the news or

CAGLE: --yes--

GIFFIN: --anything back then. So--

CAGLE: --yeah, I recently found a report I wrote in fourth grade about global warming that I--(Giffin laughs)--in like, that would have been 1994 and I--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --have no recollection--(Giffin laughs)--of knowing about global (laughs) warming in 1994--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --yeah, you were ahead of me in fourth grade.

CAGLE: I, I guess I, I'm sure it was a, uh, an assigned topic, yeah. Okay. So then like, how do you go from I don't know what I want to do to I'm going to do journalism school and I'm going to do the environmental beat.

GIFFIN: Yeah, I mean, I, there aren't too many things you can do with writing that will give you any semblance of a paycheck--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and journalism is one. Um, and so I was like, let's try that. 00:10:00And I, I moved across the country and started journalism school and, uh, liked it for the most part. Uh, it was hard, but I, you know, generally liked the feeling of what I was doing. And I tried a lot of beats, um, in, in school because, uh, the University of Missouri's journalism program is very hands on and they have you writing for, uh, the Columbia Missourian, which is the, the university run paper there. Um, and I working for the Missourian and I, I covered public health and safety. I covered politics, I covered, uh, a little bit of business. And I also covered the environment for about a semester, um, plus. And that was the beat that I felt the most like personal passion towards doing and that, that I felt excited to be writing about and felt like the problems that I was writing about and talking to sources about were really all encompassing, like we mentioned earlier. It's something that reaches pretty much every area--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, of things. And, and, um, 00:11:00I, I like the feeling of writing about something that big and that important. And, um--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --so I when I was applying for jobs, uh, near the end of college, that was, you know, kind of the top of my list was to keep doing that.

CAGLE: That's interesting that you came to it through the process of discovery, like trying out different beats, because I think so many people think of environmentalists as like sort of lifelong --(Giffin laughs)--you know--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --advocates, like you must have grown up hugging trees and--

GIFFIN: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

CAGLE: --um, but no, that you can come to it, that you can discover it as an interest area.

GIFFIN: Yeah, I, I think it's, uh, I, I've always cared for the environment and things like that. Uh, and I think maybe it's a generational thing too, where it seems like younger and younger people are, are more and more realizing, you know, maybe how screwed we're about to be. And maybe we should start, um, uh, seeing what, what solutions are out there for some of the problems

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --that we are establishing. Um, and, and so I think a lot of people my age, uh, are, are probably more 00:12:00invested in finding a way to incorporate those concerns and, and, and finding kind of a purpose driven career, um, uh, towards finding a way to address some of that. CAGLE: I think that's true from my experience advising students, undergraduate students in environment and sustainability. Do you think of what you do? Or have you like done training in solution journalism?

GIFFIN: Uh, I, I would say solutions journalism is something that kind of is incorporated into any, any story that you spend a decent amount of time on--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative].

GIFFIN: Um, there's, there, I guess there's a way to incorporate solutions journalism kind of adjacently. And then there's, you know, solutions journalism, like proper noun. You know, this is something we're actively putting as a top priority for everything we cover--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative].

GIFFIN: Um, and I think sometimes it can be hard to incorporate it fully, um, just based on deadlines and kind of the pace of things. But I think it's something that especially in the 00:13:00climate beat, with any kind of long term project, it's something that I at least, try to find a way to incorporate an, and, and ask questions in the interviews for those projects that will work towards kind of reporting out potential solutions. Um, because climate anxiety and climate doom, you know, I think is not productive towards, um--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --the overall problem. And, uh, solutions journalism is almost kind of a, a responsibility of people on the beat, I think, to kind of combat that and make it--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --make it clear that it's, it's not we're not completely past the turnaround point on some of these things.

CAGLE: Right, so do you, um, I, I only know about solutions journalism kind of in passing from having met some folks at the journalism school at, um, uh, SUNY, uh, Stony Brook, of all things. Um, and they, because they're associated 00:14:00with the Alan Alda Center for Science Communication. And, anyway, so we got to talking and, um, I mean, can it, it can just be as straightforward as making sure that a story includes like, if I'm reporting on the problem, I'm including people who are working towards a solution?

GIFFIN: Yeah, I, I think that's kind of my understanding of how I try to incorporate it, generally. Uh, I, I don't, I know that there are people who have spent a lot of time thinking about the best practices of how to incorporate solutions journalism and kind of where the line is on how much you can do--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, within the bounds of, you know, journalism, best practices and things like that. But--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --Um, yeah, in, in terms of climate, I think, you know, there are projects that I work on and I, I include kind of this idea early on, if I can, that I want to have some part of this that's through that lens of solutions journalism.

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and like I said, asking questions of, you know, what can, not only what can people do, but what are people with power already doing or--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --what 00:15:00should they be doing or maybe what's working in other states or other cities and things like that, um, that maybe we haven't incorporated, um, in, in Kentucky or in Louisville or, you know, depending on the story.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Can you, do any stories come to mind? Can you talk about any story where you've done that?

GIFFIN: Yeah, I , I, one example is, uh, well, this, this is kind of uh. Yeah, so, so recently I wrote about tree canopy in Louisville and, um kind of how that interfaces with urban heat island effect and things like that, uh, and I was talking to a urban design expert about, um, about that with U of L [1] and, and, um, what that looks like in Louisville. And, uh, he had spent time in Savannah, Georgia before this, and he mentioned, you know, Savannah generally is, is hotter, um, but it has way more trees. And he said, you know, Louisville, the, the right things are going. Louisville is going to be just as hot as Savannah one day, and if we don't have the number of trees Savannah has, 00:16:00uh, you know, our more urban areas are going to be, you know, completely just um, unlivable, basically, um, not, not a place you want to spend your time. Uh, and even that, that that was probably like one sentence in the story, but it kind of hints at without me directly saying Louisville, you need to plant more trees--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --or we're screwed. You can kind of say here's another city that is doing something that we're not doing--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, and it's working for them based on, you know, X, Y and Z. Um, that, that story did not incorporate a full, you know section or, or, you know, you know, a whole bottom half of the story that's going into all these ways to solve, uh, tree canopy problems. But, um, it's something you can do in a story, even, even in a sentence or you can--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --you can turn it into a whole kind of section of something.

CAGLE: Right. And I'm sure you had a lot of audio you could have pulled from or like, you know, that conversation. And so, choosing to include that is an active choice 00:17:00 .

GIFFIN: Right.

CAGLE: Right. Yeah. How do you find your stories?

GIFFIN: Uh (both laugh), that's, that's hard. I, I it's, it’s hard because I have a document somewhere that has like dozens of stories that I might and probably will never get to because things become more relevant and I just get pulled away into things. Uh, so the tree canopy story was like something I'd been wanting to write about since I moved here and it got really hot this summer and people were, were talking about that. Uh, a, a, a report had come out on urban heat island effect that, that kind of was hyper local and looked at it by census tract. And so I was like, okay, well, how can I use this as an excuse to write about tree canopy--(Cagle laughs)--which I had wanted to do.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

GIFFIN: And I, uh, I tried to write about it specifically at a time when it was hot and people were thinking, what do I, what we do about this--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --why is it so hot? How do we turn this around? And, so that 00:18:00, that, that really like, it's based on hopefully what people are thinking about at a given time.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

GIFFIN: Uh, I wouldn't have written the urban heat island effect story that I wrote before that tree canopy story in January because people don't feel, you know--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --and so, it, yeah, I guess in some ways it's seasonal with climate. Uh, it's, um, you know, with, with like the salt wedge in Louisiana right now, there, there are things that kind of come up and just kind of dominate the (coughs) coverage on the beat for a while.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

GIFFIN: Um, that was, you know, when, when East Palestine had its, uh, runoff into the Ohio River from that disaster. That was something that, it, pretty much took up all of my time for a couple of weeks, even all the way downstream in Louisville. People were worried about whether that was going to reach their drinking water supply. And so, I was pretty much just bugging Louisville Water and Orsanco and some of the local, uh, water officials constantly--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --just checking on things like that because that's what people were wondering.

CAGLE: Right.

GIFFIN: Um, and I think kind of contemporary 00:19:00journalism relies a lot on like search trends and things like that to see, um, what people are looking up and what questions people want answered--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, but I think it's important to answer questions that people aren't already asking too sometimes.

CAGLE: Yeah. So do you, do you have access then to, like are you getting sort of a regular update on, oh, you know, we, we know that people have been searching X kind of thing or--

GIFFIN: --yeah. Google Trends--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --has like you can just kind of go to that, that's public. Um, and I know that there are people who, there are people in the newsroom who are a lot more devoted day to day to kind of watching, uh, Google Trends and, and however else, you know, to, to get an idea of that. And we can also see like how many people click on our stories and--

CAGLE: --of course--

GIFFIN: --and see like, I, if I had written about tree canopy that one time and nobody read it, I'd have a hard time convincing my editor to write about tree canopy again (laughs)--

CAGLE: --right, yeah--

GIFFIN: --you know so, uh, it, it kind of we, we try to look at what people seem interested in 00:20:00 --

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --even after we publish it too, to see what we should continue covering, I guess.

CAGLE: Yeah. There's, uh, the heat thing just reminds me of, um, I mean, there's so much research in comm studies, communication studies about this very thing, right? Like that the, the people are more receptive to information about climate when there's a heat wave on (laughs)--

GIFFIN: --right.

CAGLE: And like even the first when James Hansen, the Goddard Space Director, um, he testified before Congress in, I think it was 89, it was the first congressional testimony about climate change. And it was the summer of like the big heat wave (both laugh) and--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --you know, the going theory is like it probably would not have happened if it hadn't been for this massive (laughs) heat wave--

GIFFIN: --right, yeah--

CAGLE: --which is, yeah, yeah. So, what is, it, like a day look like for you then? I'm sure it varies quite a lot, um, but, uh, I mean, maybe let me put this a different way. Um, this is a great opportunity to dispel, like, false stereotypes of how 00:21:00reporters work based on movies (laughs)--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --so what does your day actually look like?

GIFFIN: My day to day is, today was almost all in front of a computer and making a few phone calls. It was, it was definitely not, um, some kind of dramatic escapade, you know, around the city. Uh, I, I checked a lot of emails and sent a few and made some phone calls to people who hadn't gotten back to me and things like that. Um, uh, right now, I'm working on a longer term project that won't run for another couple of months. And so just kind of trying to chip away at that has meant a lot of emails and phone calls to let people know that I'm working on it and see if they want to talk to me about it. Um, and, uh, I'm in the middle of writing about an effort to turn the Ohio River into a national water trail and to designate that and kind of ways that, um, making the Ohio River seem approachable for recreation could encourage people to protect it and maybe not roll their tires 00:22:00into it and things like that--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, which is ideal. And, uh, so, so it's kind of a mix of trying to chip away at longer projects that, you know, you know, sometimes are referred to as big J journalism, that--

CAGLE: --mm-mm [negative]--

GIFFIN: --that, in, investigations and enterprise and long form writing that we, uh, write in the hopes of like actually kind of exposing things or encouraging change uh, and, and kind of some smaller things like like that Ohio River designation to, you know, just keep people updated on day to day things like that.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I have some data you might be interested in about, uh, Kentuckians attitudes and values related to differential use of water resources.

GIFFIN: I would love to see that.

CAGLE: I would be happy to share with you. I ran a survey. Um, I mean, it's a little dated. It was in I think it was 2018 that we ran it. But yeah, we, we have, um, evidence that people's, uh, the water resources that people associate with recreation, they have, um, 00:23:00stronger affective ties to and value more. So, I have, I have the data to prove it (laughs)--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --if you’d like it--

GIFFIN: --one of the things I've heard a lot reporting that story that is in progress is, is, uh, advocates for the Ohio River kind of dismayed at how much funding goes towards Great Lakes preservation--

CAGLE: --hmm, mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --efforts compared to the same for the Ohio River, which--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --I think, um, a lot of people who live along the Ohio, you know, wouldn't get close to it, kind of think of it as a big drainage ditch for barges--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --um, and, and I think there are a lot of people working to change that narrative.

CAGLE: Yeah, that's really interesting. Um, I've been trying toying, since you said about, um, having, like finding that you had a personal passion for the environmental beat, trying to figure out how to ask like, is that ever a drawback?

GIFFIN: Uh--

CAGLE: --I mean, given the expectations of objectivity, which we can get into that for sure (laughs).

GIFFIN: Yeah, and, and I do--I mean, yeah, it can be frustrating, 00:24:00uh, too, but, but that's kind of the job, right? People, I think, don't take you as seriously if you, um, kind of cross that line too often on objectivity. And, uh, even as a young person who has a lot at stake, uh, in, in, in the climate crisis and, and knows a lot of people who are, you know, very concerned about it. Uh, I, I work hard and I think everyone I work with works hard to maintain that level of object, objectivity. And I--I've received emails after writing stories that are very directly, uh, you know, calling out some of these issues of climate and, and calling attention to scientific studies and things like that, that might go against certain political narratives. And I received emails from people who are like, I, you know, think we probably vote differently, but I appreciated the way you wrote this. And I, you know, I--I appreciate you let me 00:25:00decide from my, you know, my own read of this and, and you displaying the facts rather than telling me what I should think.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and I think that is an effective way of, of climate communication. And, I think there's there's room for journalism and there's room for, uh, non-objective, uh, climate communication. But for what I'm doing, I think it has a purpose and it has its effect.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. That must feel really good.

GIFFIN: It does, yeah, it, it, it--and I also will write stories that, you know, I'll have people telling me are biased, but from both sides--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and that tells me I'm probably doing something right too if both sides are telling me--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --that I'm biased towards the other, so.

CAGLE: Hmm, interesting--(Giffin laughs)--I've heard that before. Do you, do you really think so? Like the sense of--

GIFFIN: --I--

CAGLE: --is that, is there truth to that--

GIFFIN: --I guess that's up to interpretation, but--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --um, I think--and, and it's just the odd email, it's not like I have hundreds of--

CAGLE: --oh, sure--

GIFFIN: --reader emails--(Cagle laughs)--rolling in, but, um--

CAGLE: --your fan club--

GIFFIN: I, I definitely have--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --written emails or--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: written stories that have gotten reactions from what appeared to be both sides of the political aisle saying--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --you know, 00:26:00I, I thought that this was, you know, one way and it--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and it kind of--(laughs)--opposing sides were feeling that--

CAGLE: --right--

GIFFIN: --so, um, I guess take that with a grain of salt with--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --with, just a few people, you know, doing that, but.

CAGLE: Yeah, also, it's hard because, you know, we never know what the thing you write is not necessarily the thing people read, you know what I mean?

GIFFIN: Right.

CAGLE: --like, like the article that you wrote is not--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --necessarily the articles that exist in a reader's head.

GIFFIN: And I think it's really challenging because there are some of these stories that I'm writing on deadline and one word choice can completely change the way someone's reading it--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and it might be a word choice I spent 20 seconds thinking about because I just didn't have time to, to do that for every word in a story--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, and I think every journalist wishes they had more time to carefully, kind of, tune the, the, the tone of a story. But--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, but that's always a challenge is that something might come across by a certain tone just because journalists are writing things quickly sometimes, and that's just kind of how it comes across--(laughs).

CAGLE: 00:27:00As someone who spends like months writing articles, I--I find it mind boggling--(laughs)--

GIFFIN: --I, well, I--I do both--

CAGLE: --you do. (laughs)

GIFFIN: And, and it’s, and I’ve, I, I get equally frustrated about both. Like sometimes--

CAGLE: --right--

GIFFIN: --I wish it was something I was writing in, you know, a couple hours--

CAGLE: --uh-huh [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and other times I'll, I’ll not--

CAGLE: --and you could just be done with it--

GIFFIN: --have time and wish I had days to do it. You know--(Cagle laughs)--that's kind of how it goes.

CAGLE: What are some of the kind of words or phrases or I don't know, approaches, tones that you have found to be--to have meaning for people that maybe you didn't intend?

GIFFIN: Hmm, that's a tough question. Hmm.

CAGLE: Or even maybe topics that were unexpectedly.

GIFFIN: I'm trying to think of like a specific story that I got feedback on where I was something I hadn't meant to--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --kind of convey. 00:28:00Hmm, yeah, nothing's coming to mind specifically for that.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I just, as you know, someone who studies climate communication, I'm very interested in the language obviously. And also, often when people ask me for advice about climate communication, what they want is, they want a vocabulary list--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --and that’s, that's not sufficient, right? Because there's no magic words--

GIFFIN: --and it's all context based and--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --yeah, that's tough.

CAGLE: Yeah. So how do you think about your readership given that? Because you do have a readership and it's not literally every Kentuckian or literally every Lou--Louvillian?

GIFFIN: --Yeah, something like that.--

CAGLE: --Okay--

GIFFIN: --Louvillian.

CAGLE: Um, but nonetheless, you're still writing about issues that touch all Kentuckians and Louvillians. Um, and I would assume you care about meeting all of the potential readers' needs. How do you, sort of, think about that?

GIFFIN: Yeah, I, I think you can't, you can't 00:29:00write it for everyone. And, um, usually, if I have to pick, you know, how am I thinking about this as I'm writing for--as the reader, if I have to pick one, I will pick who is affected most by the issue that I'm writing about. So, uh, if I'm writing about issues of air quality and things like that, I'm usually trying to write about those issues from, you know, thinking about if I am someone who lives in the Chickasaw neighborhood or somewhere in the west end of Louisville, who is--or--are a fence line community that has historically had the most trouble with air quality. And I, I've talked to people who are like, I've lived here 40 years, and this has been a problem all along, and it just doesn't get better. Um, I'm thinking, how am I writing this to make sure that the people who actually have the lived experience of the problem that I'm writing about, and, and hopefully I have their voice quoted directly somewhere in there, um, then--(laughs)--I, I want to make sure that they 00:30:00feel like it is in agreement with their lived experience--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and at the same time, also trying to convey that lived experience that hopefully, I, you know, sources are trusting that I can tell--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and are trusting to me, um, that I can convey that to people who have no idea what that's like or, or what it's like to be, uh, living in some of these neighborhoods that have, um, historically had, worst air quality conditions. So, I think, like I said, if I had to pick one, uh, kind of readership to have most top of mind while I'm writing, it's, you know, whoever is affected by the given kind of story problem. Which also is a very, it's in alignment with a lot of environmental val--you know, when people who work in sustainability spaces is like, look at who's most affected. Yeah, and use that as a sort of lodestone, lodestar, lodestone. Um, you just named some really specific issues to Louisville, how did you 00:31:00learn about Louisville when you, I mean, you've been here a year--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --and a couple months and like, is it just jump in the deep end? Do you get training? Do you just read all the Wikipedia pages? (laughs) Like, what do you do? How do you find out?

GIFFIN: Uh, yeah, it's a combination and I'm still reading Wikipedia pages--

CAGLE: --okay--

GIFFIN: --and, and things like that. But, um, when I first got here, my editor gave me some grace to not be turning around stories from day one. And, uh, I was--we were kind of in agreement, it'd be good to have a few days to kind of, try to set up meetings with some of the, uh, kind of stakeholders, and some of the problems that I knew I'd be writing about. Um, and, you know, I, I talked to, um, groups that had interest in, in different problems. So, I, I met with, uh, Ebony Cochran, for example, with REACT, um, RubberTown Emergency Action. Uh, and then I met with groups 00:32:00that were invested in waterways, so Dr. David Wicks spends a lot of time thinking about the Ohio River and things like that. He was one of the early people that I talked to. So, I kind of just tried to send out a lot of emails and, and kind of touch base with people and introduce myself and, and let them know, um, that I'd be on this beat and kind of, I'd like to sit down with you and, and hear what you've been involved with, what you're working on and what I should know about and things like that. And, and that's kind of an ongoing effort, but it was especially--I tried to front load that when I first got here.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Does that ever get overwhelming to have to try and build all these relationships with all these people? Or is that just part of the job? Whatever.

GIFFIN: It--It's kind of a blessing and a curse because you get to meet a lot of cool people doing a lot of important work. Uh, but it's also hard to not kind of neglect those relationships because there's no way for me to kind of keep in constant contact with like, you know, I, I, I have a spreadsheet with kind of everyone's name and contact info 00:33:00who I try to keep in touch with. And there's like 300 people on it and there's just no way--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --to you know, stay up on all of their, kind of, on what everyone's working on. Um, but, I, I, I, I think people generally kind of have an understanding that I'm kind of running around and covering a lot of different issues. And, uh, I don't, I don’t feel like anyone's ever been like, “you know, I haven't heard from you in months why--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --why should I talk to you now? You know?”

CAGLE: Right, yeah.

GIFFIN: People kind of get it, I think.

CAGLE: Yeah, how do you, um, interact with academic experts?

GIFFIN: Uh, well, I think genuinely kind of the same way I'd interact with anyone. I, I try to--universities generally will kind of try to connect you with someone who they think would best speak to whatever you're writing about--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --who they can schedule you with or whatever. Um, and so to some degree, I'm kind of at the mercy of that system--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --unless I know a specific person--which in some cases I do--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: -- 00:34:00Um, but yeah, I mean, they, they have a specific expertise that hopefully is aligned with what you're trying to learn about--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and I kind of draw on that just like people who live in certain neighborhoods have a lived expertise about--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --an issue affecting their neighborhood. So, it's kind of a similar, I would say, strategy--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --to any interview, which is like, I know that you know about this and I want to know about this and--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --try to write questions to that.

CAGLE: How do you--so are you relying mostly on like university, sort of administrators, to connect you with somebody if you don't already know somebody?

GIFFIN: Yeah, I--sometimes I will reach out to UofL or to UK [2] and say, “I'm writing about this”, you know, they all have comms departments--

CAGLE: --right, right--

GIFFIN: --and say, “I'm looking for one of your professors.” Um, but more often and preferably, I either know someone from having met them in the past from something, um, or I, I try to end almost every interview with who else should I talk to about this? Who knows a lot about 00:35:00X subject?

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and they'll say, “Dr. So-and-so is like, spends every day thinking about this. You should talk to him.” And so--

CAGLE: --right--

GIFFIN: --I find a lot of people that way, too.

CAGLE: I should get your input on, we're building a new website for the Climate Consortium, and one of our audiences is intended to be media, so--

GIFFIN: --Okay--

CAGLE: --figuring out ways to, so that like, media contacts don't have to go through like me--

GIFFIN: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

CAGLE: --that you can find the right climate person on our website. So--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --I should get your input on that. Um--(laughs)--speaking of turning to experts. Okay, so can you do any environmental, like, like pro environmental work as a private individual or no?

GIFFIN: Uh, I couldn't read, like, the Courier Journal's, like, ethics guidelines off the top of my head. But I know that the rules are generally--like I can vote, I can't participate in, like, political rallies, um, or, like 00:36:00, volunteer with a campaign--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --or things like that. And I think that that kind of general sentiment probably kind of covers political, uh, movements in general--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --even if they're environmental--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --like I, I don't know what my editor would say if I was like, “Hey, can I go volunteer for the Sierra Club?”--

CAGLE: --right--

GIFFIN: Um, but if I was like, “Hey, can I go to this trash pickup?”--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --that would probably be fine. Like objectively, it's good to pick up trash--

CAGLE: --right--

GIFFIN: --you know, and I don't think any readers are going to be writing in like, “why was he picking up trash?” (Cagle laughs). So--

CAGLE: --the pro trash--

GIFFIN: --right, yeah--

CAGLE: --lobby--

GIFFIN: --the pro trash--(Cagle laughs)--uh, industry interests would be--

CAGLE: --uh-huh [affirmative]. Big landfill--

GIFFIN: --so yeah--(Cagle laughs)--I would say like, as long as I don't do anything that--and, and this isn't the CJ, [3] this is just kind of journalism--

CAGLE: --right--

GIFFIN: --ethics in general is like, if you don't do anything that would clearly be a conflict of interest--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --you know, because at the same time, you know, if I volunteer for the Sierra Club, and then the next day, I have to write, uh, a story about how the Sierra Club is like, you know, doing something unethical 00:37:00 --

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --how do I write about that? I, I want--you know, so and, and that's the same with anything, any political movement or anything like that--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and that's kind of the purpose of the-- those guidelines, I would say.

CAGLE: Do people who--are on the business beat, are they not allowed to like--

GIFFIN: --shop? (both laugh).

CAGLE: Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm just, I'm so curious about where the--how the lines get drawn here. And even what you said about, like, picking up trash is objectively bad. And like, that makes sense, but sort of where that means there's a line somewhere, but like, where is it? Where's the moment that like, pro environmental action becomes perceived as political is a really interesting question.

GIFFIN: That's a really interesting question that I do not have the answer to. And it's, it's something that I mean, best practice is always just ask my boss and see what they think. And if they don't know, they ask their boss and just kind of make sure that it's nothing that could create, you know, an image of bias or, or anything. Um, but yeah, our business reporters can shop and buy from local businesses. (Cagle laughs).

CAGLE: 00:38:00Right? Even as they're [?? WORDS UNCLEAR]--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --see, yeah--

GIFFIN: --it's hard--

CAGLE: --it’s, it’s interesting--

GIFFIN: --it's really hard to do--

CAGLE: It turns out ethics is complicated. Who knew? (Giffin laughs) Um, so what do you think journalism accomplishes in terms of environment and climate? It's something you're passionate about, I assume you wouldn't do the work if you didn't think it mattered in some way. How is it that it matters?

GIFFIN: I think I can--I like to say that I--one of the reasons I like my job is that I get to hear from really smart people. And, um, I don't have to know everything. I just need to know who knows something and I can go to them and, and kind of learn basically for a living and then take what I learned and, and try to kind of explain it to other people in, in understandable terms and make it accessible information. Um, I think I feel my work has purpose because of those emails that I mentioned where I get people saying, I read this and it made me think about this-- 00:39:00CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, it's not my purpose to change people's minds about things, but it's, it--I do think of it as like, how can I explain this issue in a way that people broadly will understand maybe in a way they hadn't thought of before--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, and journalism in general, I think serves to kind of explain really--especially science journalism--take very complicated issues that may only really be explained in like research papers and things like that and kind of take it from that to something a lot more accessible to people who don't have degrees in that, you know, area.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Can you think of any examples of environmental journalism, changing things though? Like in Kentucky specifically--

GIFFIN: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

CAGLE: --like I'm thinking of--of where we see coverage that actually does, whether intended to or not, actually sort of helps shape 00:40:00how people are responding or thinking or acting on an issue.

GIFFIN: Yeah, I, it’s, um, I can't call to mind a specific instance of this, but I--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --I will say that the Courier Journal's, uh, coverage of the coal industry in Eastern Kentucky, for example, is, is--it served a watchdog role for a very long time--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, and it--that's something that both the communities and the industry recognized while we were there doing that work. And even as journalism has kind of asked reporters to do more with less, I think there are a lot of reporters trying to keep up that work--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --a recent example that comes to mind was, uh, Ryan Van Velzer at WFPL, um, doing a piece on PFOS in a water supply of a small Kentucky town--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --that story brought to light a lot of things that maybe the general public in Kentucky was not aware of happening--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: Um, so that's an example of ways that just 00:41:00kind of--here's something that a few people know that everyone should know--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --and, and, here’s, here's a way of understanding that--this thing that's happening.

CAGLE: Right, and we might see action on it as a result--

GIFFIN: --right--

CAGLE: --because--

GIFFIN: --because you won't see action if only those few people know about it--

CAGLE: --right, exactly--

GIFFIN: --but you might if everyone in the state has this on their radar.

CAGLE: Yeah. I'm just always thinking about theories of change because change feels so, um, impossible when you're sort of in the middle of big problems. And yet you look at sort of the arc of the history and it's, well, things are really different now than they used to be. (laughs)

GIFFIN: Yeah--

CAGLE: --like change obviously happens. And so, I'm just curious about the role of journalism in that. Um, okay, so speaking of Eastern Kentucky, you're covering stories that are specific to kind of the urban space in Louisville, but also more broadly, um, whether that's like, like I'm thinking of your recent piece on the absence of environmental, um, anything in the gubernatorial race--

GIFFIN: --right--

CAGLE: --right now 00:42:00, which is obviously like statewide, but then also issues that are kind of--hit rural communities more. How do you find yourself kind of navigating like being a rural resident or sorry, an urban resident reporting on a state that's largely urban--no, rural (Giffin laughs)--I can't. Oh, my God.

GIFFIN: No, I, I, I know you're asking.

CAGLE: Okay.

GIFFIN: Um--

CAGLE: --thank you--

GIFFIN: -- that, uh--

CAGLE: --I hope the future listener--(Giffin laughs)—understands. Also, it's like six-thirty, it’s been a long day.

GIFFIN: Yeah. (Cagle laughs). That’s, that's a good question. And that's, you know, that's, that’s of course the value of having someone in Eastern Kentucky--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --the Courier Journal for a time had reporters that were actively in Eastern Kentucky communities--

CAGLE: --oh, nice--

GIFFIN: --constantly--

CAGLE: --I didn't know that--

GIFFIN: --and, and right now we don't. And, uh, it's hard, right? Like I, it's something--I've been to Eastern Kentucky. I was there during the flooding last summer in Whitesburg and, and have-- it's not like I--it's--I wouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot pole or anything--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: I've obviously--I've been there and talked to folks, 00:43:00but I'm not there often and I'm not writing about it often. And it's, um, it speaks to the same problem that I mentioned earlier, where you want what you're writing about to align with the lived experiences of people affected. And right now, it seems like if I had to pinpoint anywhere in Kentucky that's most vulnerable to climate change, it would be Eastern Kentucky--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --uh, and they've also obviously been thrown under the bus economically by, by the way that the coal industry has contracted. And, um, so there's just a lot of fronts in which that, that issue of who's lived experience is at the heart of this problem--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and so that made that story a challenging one to write. And I tried to incorporate some of the voices I was hearing during the PSC hearings or, or public meetings about coal plant retirements, for example--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and I listened to probably a couple hours of those to kind of get a sense of that.

CAGLE: Yeah, there's been a lot of--(laughs)--yeah--

GIFFIN: --right, which, which was a completely different tone from the one that I attended in person in 00:44:00Louisville, um, which was full of mostly environmental activists. Um, and then, uh, the, I want to say Hopkins County and Harlan County meetings were mostly either coal miners or retired coal miners or, uh, kind of lifelong coal community members. Um, and yeah, I mean, that story was already too long when I turned it in--(Cagle laughs)--and, and it was one of those like, I wish I could, uh, take the time to travel there and talk to a dozen people--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and incorporate that. And I, I did get a quote in from one of the meetings and I, I kind of tried to incorporate that vision of, of what a just transition would--should look like--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and kind of, um, what certain groups are working towards to make sure that those communities aren't just kind of forgotten given, you know, their role in the economy 00:45:00for the 20th century of, of, of mining coal and kind of contributing so much to the US economy--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --for all those years. And now to make sure that we don't kind of portray them as, um, communities that you know, are, are against, uh, climate action or anything like that--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --these are people who care a lot about their land and just, you know, there's a lot of nuance to that. That, I think someone in Louisville, like to go back to your question, and I've kind of rambled a bit, but someone in Louisville, um, can't cover that as well as someone who lives in Eastern Kentucky could. Um, and I, I'd love for the Eastern, uh, Eastern Kentucky to have more reporters actually based there covering--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --it day to day and to have more of that watchdog coverage. Um, and I, I think that

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --would be the ideal way to cover coal communities is to have people who are actively living there covering them.

CAGLE: Yeah. I mean, it's the same issue that rural communities are facing in terms of access to medicine 00:46:00, education, healthcare in general, I should say--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --like, yeah, that the resources are being drained out. Um, and then, yeah, it's a bummer. Um--

GIFFIN: --And I should say that there are people in--

CAGLE: --obviously--

GIFFIN: --Eastern Kentucky covering it. Um, but more can't hurt, I, I--

CAGLE: --no, exactly--

GIFFIN: --I would love to see way more journalists, um--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --especially for um--

CAGLE: --and specifically the Courier Journal doesn't have anyone, yeah--

GIFFIN: --organizations like the Courier Journal, and, and, uh, bigger, uh--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --institutions that have, you know, reach. You know, I think we have kind of responsibilities to cover those areas well--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --and not just kind of jump in when there's a flood or something like that.

CAGLE: Right. Exactly.

GIFFIN: Which is just hard to do--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --in the current kind of journalistic, uh, just the in, industry climate, I guess you could say--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative], yeah--

GIFFIN: --the way things are right now.

CAGLE: Well, yeah. I mean, what you said, right, that you you're spending your day to day, like, chipping away at the big J story, but a lot of it is just reactive--

GIFFIN: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

CAGLE: --to what's happening. Yeah, um, do you have, like, a network of other environmental reporters in the state then? 00:47:00Like, do you know who's covering stuff in eastern Kentucky and, and elsewhere in the state?

GIFFIN: The environmental reporters in the state, there aren't very many of us who are actively--have environment as our beat--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --there are people who cover environmental stories, but maybe they are general assignment or things like that. Um, Liam at the Kentucky Lantern, uh, Ryan at WFPL, uh, Jim Bruggers, who is covering kind of more the southeast for Inside Climate News--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, and apologies if I'm missing anyone. I think those are, are the people that come to mind--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --who are environmentally focused. I'm sure there's probably a few more, but that, that--those are–

CAGLE: --I know freelance Austin Gaffney--

GIFFIN: --yeah, yeah--

CAGLE: --Yeah. But, but she's totally freelance--

GIFFIN: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

CAGLE: --um, and then even I mean, we, we're Herald Leader in Lexington and I don't think we have anyone--

GIFFIN: --I don’t think--

CAGLE: --so Alex Acquisto covers--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --but her primary beat is health care, I think.

GIFFIN: Yeah.

CAGLE: Yeah.

GIFFIN: And I, I think they have an eastern Kentucky reporter, too.

CAGLE: 00:48:00 Yes.

GIFFIN: Um, but I don't think they have anyone who's, like, on the environment beat.

CAGLE: Yeah.

GIFFIN: Not that they don't cover it at all--

CAGLE: --no, but there's a ton of coverage, but it’s--

GIFFIN: --but they don't have a person committed to it.

CAGLE: Yeah, exactly. And that I mean, as you said, you're lucky to have one--

GIFFIN: --right--

CAGLE: --right, and [?? WORDS UNCLEAR]--

GIFFIN: --and the CJ didn't for years.

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: I mean, Jim Bruggers used to be at the CJ--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, and I want to say there was maybe a four or so year gap--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --between when he left and when they hired me last summer.

CAGLE: Yeah.

GIFFIN: Um, and so I guess I'm kind of the experiment of--(Cagle laughs)--you know, is it, is it worth bringing this back--

CAGLE: --right--

GIFFIN: --for the paper as they kind of crunch their numbers on, on coverage? Because we have to kind of be judicious in what we choose to cover with our, our limited staff, so.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. And also just space, right? Like there's only so many stories a day--

GIFFIN: --right--

CAGLE: --that can run. Although, is the digital--does it run--is it identical or their stuff that runs digital only?

GIFFIN: Uh, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if every story that we run ends up in the 00:49:00print paper.

CAGLE: Okay.

GIFFIN: I feel like probably not.

CAGLE: Yeah.

GIFFIN: Um, but I'm not certain on that. But I will say that if we got like, a huge grant, the CJ wouldn't be like, sorry, we can't take any more reporters--

CAGLE: --oh, sure. Sure, sure, sure--

GIFFIN: --the paper's full--

CAGLE: --right, the papers, yeah--

GIFFIN: --(Cagle laughs). You know, we would, we would take more reporters and we would--

CAGLE: --right--

GIFFIN: --write more stories--

CAGLE: --yes--

GIFFIN: --absolutely--

CAGLE: --yes--

GIFFIN: --if we could.

CAGLE: Okay. Um, so, okay, you--going back to this, getting hired and breaking the four-year gap or four-year drive--dry spell. Do you know how the Report for America CJ connection ended up being made or--

GIFFIN: --that's, that's a good question. I'm not exactly sure. I know that there were several editors and kind of newsroom leadership at the CJ who had--you have to kind of as a newsroom writer, write a proposal to RFA as to why you deserve to get one of our core members--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --why is this an issue area that is important? 00:50:00Um, and I, I read, I read what they had sent in to Report for America a while ago--I don't remember all the details. Um, but I think generally it was, this is Kentucky and, and climate is important and we don't have someone on the beat and we would like to--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and that was kind of the, the pitch. Um, there was a little more nuance to it than that. Um, but just like I had to apply for Report for America, the CJ also had to apply for a Report for America to get a reporter--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, and I think that me--my position existing shows that the CJ had some level of investment in, in saying this is something that we think is important to be covering here and this is how we're going to try to do it.

CAGLE: So you apply to Report for America and then you figure out where you're going to end up or did you apply specifically to this?

GIFFIN: Yeah, so when I applied to Report for America, part of the application there's, you know, your typical job application stuff, and then there's a few like 00:51:00short answer kind of questions, and then there's rank like five places. On--they have their whole list of--these are all our openings for this round--this year of, of Report for America. And you, you see all this there, it's the city and the job and you know what, what outlet you'd be working for and what the beat would be. And I applied and Louisville was in my preferences, so I think it was, it was near the top half of my five, I think maybe second preference or something like that. Um, and so you say these are my preferences, and then you interview with Report for America. And if they like you, they send your job application stuff to your preference newsrooms. So, the Courier would have gotten all of my job application stuff and decided whether they wanted to interview me and they did. And then I got the job.

CAGLE: Oh, what was your top choice? Do you remember?

GIFFIN: I don't remember. They--there, there were--they were all 00:52:00in the Mississippi River Basin, ag/water desk thing--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative], yeah--

GIFFIN: --so it would have been a pretty similar role for all five--

CAGLE: --yes--

GIFFIN: --they were just in different cities for different papers.

CAGLE: Okay. And you, so, did you get involved with Mississippi River Basin Ag and Water Desk while you were in college still then?

GIFFIN: I was actually the inaugural year of that.

CAGLE: --What? Okay--

GIFFIN: --so I was that, that started, yeah--

CAGLE: --talk us through that whole thing and tell us what it is and how it works. And you even said--alluded to like having had a conversation with the other folks involved with it about like, is it your responsibility? You know, to--

GIFFIN: --yeah, yeah--

CAGLE: --ensure the other? So, clearly you're in sort of regular communication--

GIFFIN: --yeah, absolutely--

CAGLE: --is it a mentor? It tells everything.

GIFFIN: Yeah, it's actually, it's a cool program. It's very much still kind of being built out and they're trying to figure out the most effective way to do it. It is--so it started off, they pulled, I think 10 reporters from the year of report for America that I was in--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and so there was someone in, for example, at the Star Tribune in Minneapolis 00:53:00 .

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --there was, uh, someone at the Gazette in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. There's like--and all the way down we had someone in Louisiana and New Orleans. And so, we have people all kind of all over--somebody in Memphis. And so, we've got those reporters that--there's ten of us. We're all Report for America reporters. And then we've got some other kind of advisory journalists who have a little more experience, uh, who are also part of the desk, um, and kind of advise on stories but also maybe co-byline and help, help out on reporting if it's relevant to kind of their area of expertise or their geography or whatever. Um, and so the model is you take all these reporters and I'm supposed to spend 20% of my time, my forty-hour work week, twenty percent of that is supposed to go towards working for the desk. So right now, for example, I might have 00:54:00a story that I'm working on that is specifically for the Ag and Water desk. So, I write the story. The Ag and Water desk has an editor who edits the story I write and then we distribute it. And so, what that means is we, we use, um, uh the Associated Press', uh, story sharing, uh, platform to put the story out there. We put the text of the story, photos, anything like that--we have radio folks so sometimes it'll be audio to put on radio. Um, and then any paper can--or, or radio station or any news outlet can pick it up for free and just run it--

CAGLE: --hmm--

GIFFIN: So, it's a good way for reporting that is very thorough and from people whose environment, you know, focused--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --environmental reporters who do this every day. And to put environmental reporting from those journalists into papers that might not employ environmental journalists, especially like small outlets, um, 00:55:00you know, smaller media markets that might not have the resources to employ an environmental journalist. Um, so I think that has been kind of the greater good of that program is that we're able to kind of get environmental reporting to places where it might not have appeared before. Um, and it's still going. I think they got another round, uh, of grant money that'll keep it going longer and kind of expand the program a bit. So, so far so good, I guess.

CAGLE: Nice. So, it's under the umbrella of Report for America, though.

GIFFIN: It's yeah, I, I'm not sure if they're always going to work with Report for America, but that first round of reporters--

CAGLE: --oh, okay--

GIFFIN: --that included myself was all Report for America reporters. The advisor journalists were not--

CAGLE: --okay--

GIFFIN: --they, they were kind of adjacent. And then I think they're continuing with Report for America reporters, but I'm not sure. Um.

CAGLE: Okay, but it's not a sort of internal Report for America program--

GIFFIN: --no, it's separate and it's based at the University of Missouri--

CAGLE: --oh, which is--

GIFFIN: --which is separate 00:56:00from the fact that I went there--(Cagle laughs)--that was kind of by chance--

CAGLE: --uh-huh [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --like, I'm the only one on, I think I'm the only one of those 10 reporters who went to Mizzou [4] --

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --but they're, the executive director is also a professor at, at Mizzou--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and, and it's kind of based there. And some of the undergrads kind of do some like research projects with the desk--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and things like that--

CAGLE: --hmm, okay. So, it's through an academic journalism, not, but yes, a journalism program housed in a university. So, you've got faculty who have like the--as part of their job, probably to bring in grant monies or have that kind of space to bring in grant monies?

GIFFIN: Yeah. So, I, I think, I don't know if it's our only funding or just our primary funding, but we're at least largely funded by the Walton Family Foundation--

CAGLE: --oh, cool--

GIFFIN: --and maybe some other groups--I'm not sure--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --I’d have to check the list, but, um--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --that, that is the grant that we had renewed that kind of supports the, um, staffing and kind of day-to-day of 00:57:00, of the desk--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and how that goes.

CAGLE: So how does that show up in your, in your job now, aside from writing stories that go to the desk, right are you--

GIFFIN: --yeah, so--

CAGLE: --do you have like a mentoring group? Is there, yeah.

GIFFIN: We have weekly meetings. So, every Wednesday for like an hour, we talk--everyone talks about what they're working on, and what should we be working on, and what are the big issues in climate and water and agriculture in the Mississippi River Basin. Um, and to some degree, I'm a little detached from that because a lot of it--Kentucky is technically a main stem state, we border it a little bit out to the West near Cairo. But for the most part, at least--especially in Louisville, we definitely identify more as an Ohio River state because we're mostly on the Ohio. And so, in some ways I'm a little detached from like the greater conversations, uh, around Mississippi River issues, but there's definitely a lot of overlap. Today we were talking a lot about what the farm bill means 00:58:00for SNAP benefits and things like that, um, and, and farmers markets and things like that. And does your farmers market in your city take SNAP? And just we're kind of having conversations around that and ways to approach that coverage. And so, we meet every week and we have those conversations. And then we also have, uh, Tegan Wendland who's currently the editorial director--she's my editor if I'm writing a story for the desk. Um, and we have other, like I mentioned, expert journalists on the desk who help with editing and advising on stories. Um, and as far as day to day, there are also stories--I mean, if I write a story for the Courier Journal and the desk is like, we like that story and would like to distribute it, if the Courier Journal's okay with it--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --I can take that story and give it to them and they can distribute it out too. So, it doesn't have to start off as a desk story--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --If they like something I’m 00:59:00writing and the CJ is cool with it, then we can distribute it to more outlets too.

CAGLE: Does it happen the other way too where desk stories end up--

GIFFIN: --yeah, we can pick up anything that the desk writes. But like I said, I don't think we've, to my knowledge, we haven't picked up any desk story that I didn't have a byline on--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --only because, like I said, a lot of the desk stories are like upper Mississippi River Basin, like Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois type stuff--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --or kind of that Midwestern agriculture scene, which were a little bit, not completely separate, but a little more distanced from some of those--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --and the CJ is also pretty hyper local in that we write a ton about Louisville and a fair amount about the state. We don't really write much outside of that. And, and so if something's like everyone speaking in a story is from either Iowa or Illinois or something--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --we don't really take those. Um, but I, I, I think 01:00:00it's still, it’s still good. And it's also good because, like I said, I'm the only environmental journalist in my newsroom. And it's nice to once a week be around a bunch of other people thinking about environment and climate and, and have other people who are really, really experienced in this, um, kind of share what they're working on and how they're approaching stories and how they're approaching coverage and things like that being the only one on my beat in my newsroom--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --and a lot of them are also the only ones on the beat in their newsroom as well, so.

CAGLE: That's kind of why I, I co-founded the Kentucky Climate Consortium. And it was kind of like, because my colleague, Carmen Aguerridos, who's in, um, she's a, um, bioengineering Ag specialist, extension specialist at UK. We were like, we need more people--(both laugh)--you know--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --we're the only people--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --in our department--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --doing like, yeah, really dedicated climate work. So--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --yeah. So, what is the value, as you see it, of having 01:01:00a news group--desk? Is desk like an industry term? Like I know what desk means in the context of like a newsroom, but for this, is it sort of metaphorical or?

GIFFIN: I--we're all at physical desks, I guess--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --but we're at separate desks around the state,

CAGLE: --right, the, yeah--

GIFFIN: --around the country. Um, I call it the desk because the full title is Mississippi River Basin Ag and Water Desk--

CAGLE: --right--

GIFFIN: --and that's a long name--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --and so yeah--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --Ag and Water Desk, that's kind of how I refer to it.

CAGLE: Is this a model? Like, if I said like, oh, you know, I want to write a grant to get funding for like a multi newsroom desk. Is that like a thing people in the industry--would that make sense? Or is it sort of this is a pioneering use of the term?

GIFFIN: It’s--in terms of the term, it's not entirely pioneering in that I think that there's something very similar for the Colorado River--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and it's that's something I think that we probably, 01:02:00uh, had--again, the people who's arranged this--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and were involved in the grant writing and things like that probably did have conversations with the folks who are doing something similar on I want to say it's called the water desk or something like that--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]. yeah--

GIFFIN: --on the Colorado River. Because the Society of Environmental Journalists, SEJ, which is kind of the Association for People on my beat, uh, kind of a lot of paths cross with that group. And so, I think that's probably part of what inspired the way we arranged our, our thing. But it is pioneering in our region--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --in that I'm not sure there's something like this here before this started.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. So that was a total sidetrack. My actual question was, what is the value of organizing a desk like this around an environmental feature as opposed to say, like political boundaries, which is really if I mean--that's how most, you know, it's 01:03:00a city--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: -- newspaper and a city is a political unit, so.

GIFFIN: That's a great question. Yeah, that's I think a big part of why, both why they did it the way they did it, but also why it's pioneering because traditionally we think of news organizations as being, you know, we're going to cover Kentucky, we're going to cover Louisville, we're going to cover--whatever based on those boundaries. Um, but you leave out the fact--East Palestine is a great example. You leave out that some terrible thing happening in Ohio can affect Kentucky even though Ohio is Ohio and we're Kentucky. Um, and so something that happens upstream in Minnesota can affect things downstream, and, and all of that is, is related. And right now, a great example of that is like, overall lack of rainfall in the Mississippi River Basin, which is this whole gigantic region, is affecting, uh, Louisiana through its saltwater wedge--and things like that 01:04:00. And it's just really interesting how, um, environmental characteristics have such a big part. I mean the whole, this whole region of the U.S. is very much like, built up around where rivers are. And so, I think it makes a lot of sense to structure, kind of coverage based on those natural resources and--because we're all kind of co-relying on the river and what happens to it.

CAGLE: Yeah. It feels I mean, as you were describing that, like it feels weirdly radical, right, to say no, we're going to center the Mississippi River Basin and not even the Mississippi River, but the river basin--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --which is an even more sort of like--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --nerdy--(laughs)--

GIFFIN: --yeah. And it's huge. And, and I'm, I, because I'm on the Ohio and I'm, I'm so focused on Louisville, you know, generally in my day-to-day, uh. There are people on the desk who are like total Mississippi River Basin nerds 01:05:00and are, are very much into what you just described and, and the way that that kind of structuring of, of what we do is, is based on the basin and not on political boundaries.

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, of course, a lot of our--(laughs)--political boundaries are also based on rivers and stuff like that. So, there's that. But, um, no I--

CAGLE: --right, yeah, we're in Louisville--

GIFFIN: --right, right, right--

CAGLE: --which is like you can walk across the bridge--(both laugh)--to Indianapolis for a drink--

GIFFIN: --exactly, um, but yeah, no, no, I, I’ve always appreciated that--

CAGLE: --or not Indianapolis, in, Indiana--

GIFFIN: --yeah, Jefferson Building--

CAGLE: --yeah, Indianapolis is a whole different place. Okay. (laughs).

GIFFIN: Yeah. No, I've always appreciated that and the way that they did that. And I do think it's really cool. And I think it makes a lot of sense--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --to, to kind of group that together, because I think, uh, Louisville and New Albany share a lot of the same fate, maybe a lot more than New Albany and Indianapolis do--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --because it's right there and it relies on the Ohio and all that. So.

CAGLE: Yeah. So, Mizzou is a really good journalism school, right?

GIFFIN: It is. Yeah--

CAGLE: --yeah 01:06:00. Um, what makes it a good, what, what counts as a good journalism school? Like, what are the qualities? (Giffin laughs) I don't know.

GIFFIN: I'm biased--

CAGLE: --yeah, okay--

GIFFIN: --because I went to Mizzou--

CAGLE: --right.

GIFFIN: I enjoyed my time there. It's good because it's not, you know, Northwestern is a great journalism school. Um, Mizzou is a lot cheaper than Northwestern, uh, and I didn't get into Northwestern--

CAGLE: --uh-huh--

GIFFIN: --I applied and didn't get in. Uh, but Mizzou is good because you get a lot of, uh, hands on. Like I said, you--they kind of force it down your throat, and early on, you're kind of terrified. But you, you, I, I spent probably two and a half years of, of my time at Mizzou, like directly interning at places that were, uh, not student papers, but like professionally edited. There was faculty editing your stories and, and, um, holding you to that standard. And so that was, that was definitely a good, um, primer for being at the CJ.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. That's the Columbia Missourian 01:07:00 --

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --is the, so it's not a student paper, but the students are--

GIFFIN: --yeah. So, Mizzou--

CAGLE: --really (??) involved--

GIFFIN: --yeah. Mizzou has a student paper, it's called The Maneater, and it's great. It also has the Missourian, which is incorporated, I, I don't know their exact like structure--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --but it's basically part of the university. It's owned by the university and--it's student staffed and professionally managed--

CAGLE: --okay--

GIFFIN: --so there's faculty and all the editor roles. And then there's students who are reporters, photographers, page designers--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --assistant editors, things like that. But everything at the top is all professional faculty

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --who are kind of holding you to a little bit of a higher standard.

CAGLE: Yeah. What--how has moving into like the newsroom here for a, you know, major city paper? How does that look different for you then?

CAGLE: It's funny because the Missourian because we're students and we're basically working for the Missourian as part of a class--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, the 01:08:00Missourian staff is like gigantic, it's, it's like huge there’s--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --you never don't have enough people to go to a thing--

CAGLE: --right--

GIFFIN: --um, real journalism is very different from that in that, in that pretty much every newsroom I can think of is not in a position where they're--(laughs)--just--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --got nothing but reporters--

CAGLE: --right.

GIFFIN: --uh--

CAGLE: --sure. Go to that--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --cover that--

GIFFIN: --yeah. Go do whatever you want. (Cagle laughs). And so, yeah, there's--you have to be you have to choose like what can we cover--

CAGLE: --hmm--

GIFFIN: --what can we manage to cover and what are we not going to get to--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --and, and there's consistently conversations around like, what do we have to consciously decide? You know, this is important, but we just don't have the resources to cover this. And that's not the CJ, that's like, news in general--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --so that I would say that's, that's the big difference that you're still pitching stories in the Missouri and saying--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --here's why I think this is worth writing about--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: Um, but that's been an adjustment for me at the CJ is--I’m the only environmental writer (laughs) and there's plenty of issues on the environment, 01:09:00uh, that I would never run out of story ideas, but I have to choose, you know--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --what to pitch. And my editor has to say that's not you know--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --there are more important, relevant things to cover than that. And, you know, have those conversations.

CAGLE: How do you choose?

GIFFIN: It's kind of similar to what I said. Like, what are people reading--

CAGLE: --okay--

GIFFIN: --what are people asking about? Um, what have people read in the past? Um, they're--like--during I keep going back to the East Palestine example. But that was something that every time we wrote about it, people wanted to know what the latest thing was--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --they wanted to know, is this going to affect my drinking water? Do I need to, you know, make a Costco run right now and buy like a ton of--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --bottled water and things like that? And so there, was there was value in, in providing those answers--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and staying on that for that week or two--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --that people were concerned about that. So that's kind of we try to decide based on. It, it's partly a guessing game of like, what do people want to know?

CAGLE: Right.

GIFFIN: And then at the same time, trying to think of what do people need to know, but maybe aren't searching for, but if we wrote about it, they would read it. 01:10:00You know,

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --that's kind of a separate question--

CAGLE: --yes--

GIFFIN: --that you have to do, too.

CAGLE: Right. Which is a little bit like crystal balling, right--

GIFFIN: --right--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --very challenging.

CAGLE: Have there been any stories since you've been here that you're like, I'm going to go to mat--the map for this. I've got to write this. So, we know you wanted to write about tree canopy, but you found a good hook, was there anything--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --you were like, no, this is the hill. I will die.

GIFFIN: I, I don't think I've ever had a point where I took an idea to my editor, my editor said no, and I was like, frustrated by that--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --where I was--I, I felt that that was the wrong call--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --uh, I think my editor and I have had discussions about like, you know, why should or should not, you know, on certain stories. But, um, I, I think we've always kind of came to a mutual agreement after kind of discussing that--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --like back and forth of, of like, okay, yeah, that's--this is something someone would read 01:11:00. And this is maybe something that we can't get to, at least for now.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Which was the one if there is one that you were like, most excited, like, yeah--(laughs)--I get to write this story.

GIFFIN: Oh, man. The tree canopy one was one of them. I really--I have kind of just a personal like I like thinking about the way cities are laid out and things like that--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --I'm not like a nerd in that. I know a lot about it. I just kind of it just kind of intrigues me. And I like hearing from people who are smart about that talk about it. So that was, that was a big one. And then I enjoyed writing a while ago, I wrote about the Kentucky Glade Crest, which is like this very tiny flower that only grows in Jefferson and Bullock counties. Uh, and it was--my, my hook for that was it was in bloom and it was, uh, I'd written a lot about how development was threatening certain areas of Jefferson County and how, uh, we have a lot of sprawl here, and 01:12:00that was an easy way to combine those two things is, is--this is in bloom. We can get some cool photos of it while it's doing that. And I'm already writing about development and sprawl and how that's affecting our environment. And, uh, I enjoyed writing that story, too. So, I don't know. I'm kind of all over the place. And sometimes I think I won't enjoy something and I, I have a lot of fun writing it--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and, you know, it's just kind of how it goes.

CAGLE: Yeah. Uh, I love a tiny flower, uh--

GIFFIN: --I love it. And it's yeah, you see it and it's like smaller than a penny--

CAGLE: --uh-huh [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --it's like the tiniest thing--

CAGLE: --oh my god, that's cool. Do people--like were they into it? Did, did you get any response?

GIFFIN: People read it.

CAGLE: Yeah.

GIFFIN: People read it. And, and I think it--I had some people emailing me asking, you know, how can I get this planted in my yard--

CAGLE: --oh--

GIFFIN: --and I think I have it in my yard, but I'm not sure. Like, who do I ask--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --and answering those questions. And it, it was kind of fulfilling to see--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --that people cared about this tiny flower--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --and it wasn't just me. You know?

CAGLE: Yes. No, absolutely. It's funny, one of the findings I did a 01:13:00big visitor survey with the state arboretum a couple of years ago in Lexington. And one of the things that we found--this was in service of their interpretive planning efforts--was that the--so they have a bunch of stuff there. But one of their collections is the walk across Kentucky and it's--they have plantings of all seven bio regions in Kentucky--

GIFFIN: --uh-huh [affirmative]--

CAGLE: --and so you like, take a path. It's a two-mile path and you walk from one like, bioregion to the next, and--

GIFFIN: --that’s awesome--

CAGLE: --all of the plants have been collected in Kentucky and like brought back and are tended and whatever. And, um, people are very into--like Kentuckians really like Kentucky. (Both laugh)--

GIFFIN: --yes, they do--

CAGLE: --and so this was one of our findings was like we've really the arboretum really needs to lean harder into this particular collection because people get really like the state pride--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --so the fact that you can say like it only grows in Jefferson and Bullitt--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --I would not be surprised if there aren't a bunch of Kentuckians being like, that's right. (laughs)--

GIFFIN: --yeah, exactly. And you don't, you know, 01:14:00I, I was like, I wonder if I'm going to get emails from people saying, you know, you can--this flower is something you would probably wouldn't even see if you walked--

CAGLE: --right--

GIFFIN: --past it. You know--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --what would go wrong if it, you know--

CAGLE: --right--

GIFFIN: --if it disappeared--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --and I, I didn't hear that--

CAGLE: --interesting--

GIFFIN: --I think people were--understood that all of this is kind of part of a--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --you know, a web of things that are reliant on each other--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --and people kind of or, or they just didn't bother emailing me about it. (laughs)--

CAGLE: --well, yeah. No certainly, you get all the responses--

GIFFIN: --but I didn't get people going, who cares--

CAGLE: --right--

GIFFIN: --you know, I got people going, is this it--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --you know, what do I do? How can I personally--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --you know, take part--

CAGLE: --what did you tell--where do you point people when they want like, follow up?

GIFFIN: I, I point people to, uh, people way smarter than me--

CAGLE: --uh-huh [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --which is the people at the state, you know, nature preserves or whatever--

CAGLE: --oh, nice, yeah--

GIFFIN: --it is who are kind of like, on top of this flower and are keeping an eye on it.

CAGLE: That's so cool. Yeah, I'm like, if anyone asked me about plants, I'm just like, extension--(Giffin laughs)--extension--

GIFFIN: --exactly--

CAGLE: --like, I don't know--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --like, I have coneflowers in my yard, I don’t know--(Giffin laughs)--

GIFFIN: --yeah.

CAGLE: Okay. I have, 01:15:00um, I think just one last big question for you, which is, you've been doing this for fourteen months now, um, fifteen months? Something like that--

GIFFIN: --yeah.

CAGLE: Yeah.

GIFFIN: Yeah, a year in June, July, August, September.

CAGLE: Okay.

GIFFIN: Yeah.

CAGLE: So, um, a year and, uh, third, um, (Giffin laughs) which is a long time, right? Given what you've described about the immersion in these issues. So, I'm curious what your perspective is as to the biggest environmental and specifically climate, but environmental issues facing Kentucky. Like what is it that people need to be thinking about, becoming knowledgeable about?

GIFFIN: Yeah, I mean, I think scientifically the way that our rainfall patterns are shifting very, uh, quickly based on what I've heard from experts on climate, that is something that is potentially going to hit--I mean, it's very unpredictable, but it's something that could, could really hurt us, uh, as a state. And I think 01:16:00recently I want to say environmental defense fund or something like that, uh, Liam at Kentucky Lantern just wrote about this report, that I think a few of the 10 most climate vulnerable counties in the United States based on this report are in Eastern Kentucky--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --presumably from flood risk--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --and we see things like, uh, NFIP, flood insurance, federal flood insurance premiums rising in some of those counties. Um, Strip mine hills are not good for flood mitigation. There's just a lot of factors that are working against Eastern Kentucky given our shifting rainfall patterns. Um, and so that's like first thing that comes to mind. And then the other side of that coin is our shifting rainfall patterns mean more rain in shorter periods, which means longer dry stretches. Um, I'm sure our agriculture industry probably won't love that. And, uh, it's, we've had droughts here just in the year and four months that I've been here. 01:17:00Um, and that's something that climate experts are expecting to get worse. Um, and then I guess a little more philosophically I would say--another challenge is convincing people that that is happening and that this isn't some temporary trend. Um, this is going to kind of, uh, scale up from here the more we wait before changing things--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, and so kind of any chance I can get to, um, reiterate the scientific consensus around how much we stand to lose from not kind of changing our ways in Kentucky, especially as an inland state that I think a lot of people don't think of first as like, you know, we're not Florida, right? We're not the first ones to come to mind when you think of climate risk, but we're definitely up there--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --regardless. And so, yeah.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Okay. Is there anything I should have asked you about that I didn't?

GIFFIN: I love that question. And I ask it in every interview 01:18:00 .

CAGLE: Oh--

GIFFIN: --um.

CAGLE: Well, I'm so flattered. (both laugh).

GIFFIN: It's a good question, uh, no, I think we covered a lot--

CAGLE: --okay--

GIFFIN: --I would say–

CAGLE: --hobbies, pets, I don’t know--(laughs)--

GIFFIN: --um, I ride my bike a lot--

CAGLE: --yeah--

GIFFIN: --that's a good one. I've got like an old, like eighties Schwinn that's like falling apart. I got it for like 150 bucks--

CAGLE: --nice--

GIFFIN: --out of some guy's garage.

CAGLE: How heavy is it?

GIFFIN: Uh, too heavy--

CAGLE: --oh--

GIFFIN: --it, it's not bad--it's like a road bike. It's pretty, it's pretty skinny.

CAGLE: Okay. As long as it's not one of those like, the like, steel, like--

GIFFIN: --no, it, it's not too bad--

CAGLE: --from the eighties--

GIFFIN: --yeah, it's not too bad. And I live downtown in an apartment and it sometimes is a death trap to try to bike around downtown Louisville--

CAGLE: --mm-hmm [affirmative]--

GIFFIN: --um, but hopefully we, we improve on that as one of our urban planning. And I think we've got a Department of Transportation in the works, which is another example of something that's kind of, environment adjacent, that I might be kind of covering as that develops.

CAGLE: Mm-hmm [affirmative]. I was about to ask if bike, biking would be considered like environmental 01:19:00 --

GIFFIN: --yeah, I think like, considering how we make available modes of transportation that aren't cars and including EVs because EVs are just not affordable to most people. Um, I was sad to see the other day that Louisville's bike share program, uh, was going to stop--

CAGLE: --oh my god--

GIFFIN: --I think later this month. I'm not--I mean, maybe it'll be replaced by something else. But I did see that that was closing down at least for now. And so yeah, I think that's definitely an environmental thing. It's like how do we get people from point A to point B without worsening climate change and adding carbon to the world if we can avoid it.

CAGLE: Yeah. Well, I hope you don't die on your bike. (Both laugh).

GIFFIN: Me too, that would be great--

CAGLE: --yeah, I say this as a fellow cyclist. So--

GIFFIN: --yeah--

CAGLE: --yeah, indeed. All right. Well, thank you so much for your time--

GIFFIN: --thanks so much. I appreciate it.

[End of interview.]